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Smartie's commander reworks: OKW

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Vipper
10 Mar 2021, 10:28 AM
#61
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 10:22 AMSander93

How is their current vet not already perfectly designed for a brute force AI unit? They get all the combat

Durability bonuses should be available earlier than vet 3 for an assault infatry and so should passive healing (if ti remained available).

Suppressive fire should not be available to the unit (cool down should go down).

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 10:22 AMSander93

Their 4 men durability is the only thing that keeps this upgrade balanced, removing that would be a mistake.

As I said reduce DPS increase size to 5. 5 men assault troops do not work that well. It should be obvious by now with ST.

Point here is that if they where a separate unit they could have separate tool set and vet bonuses tailor made for their role. Having and long range unit and assault unit using the same base stats is not a good basis.
:)
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Sander93
10 Mar 2021, 10:30 AM
#62
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Eh, IR STG44 Obers and Stormtroopers are not assault troops. No wonder you think they're bad.
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Vipper
10 Mar 2021, 10:32 AM
#63
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 10:30 AMSander93
Eh, IR STG44 Obers and Stormtroopers are not assault troops. No wonder you think they're bad.

I do not think that they are bad. They are badly designed.

SMG ST have a DPS similar to commandos yet commandos are far superior.

As for "assault troops" you can use a different term if you like I really do not mind.
:)
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Geblobt
10 Mar 2021, 11:37 AM
#69
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Posts: 213

Spec Ops and Grand Offensive were the meta commander in the last 3 years. And even then we havent seen Stg-Obers becoming meta. So they are for sure not "great".
Imo they are neither bad nor good, just mediocre. There is not much reason to get them over lmgs. Maybe against commandos or on maps with many shotblockers. But even then you probably face shocks or rangers. So why even going for Obers at that point? Just go Falls and press Valiant Assault :).

I think the upgrade is fine. Ofc the weapon upgrade could get reworked, but im sure there are more important things to adjust than Stg-Obers.
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Smartie
10 Mar 2021, 11:38 AM
#71
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So many posts because of the IrStg44 upgrade?
Lol
#We have definitly more serious design issues to talk about.

And honestly Soviet and Wermacht commanders need most of the attention not the western front armies.
And before we get another commander related thread pls use the existing threads for feedback.
Despite having the worst commander pool imo players almost gave no much needed feedback to Soviets.

So please use your last chance:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/107342/smartie-s-commander-reworks-soviets

Just compare the great ideas in this thread with the Soviet commander thread above and you see what I meaning:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/101020/6-changes-to-improve-wehrmacht-commanders-thematically/page/6#post_id790046
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Sander93
10 Mar 2021, 13:27 PM
#72
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 11:37 AMGeblobt
But even then you probably face shocks or rangers. So why even going for Obers at that point?


Because IR STG44 Obers win against those squads and don't need expensive abilities to do it.

They are not popular because Obers are not popular in 1v1. That should hopefully change now with the recent changes to the Schwerer. I see them often enough in teamgames and they are very strong.
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WAAAGH2000
10 Mar 2021, 13:44 PM
#73
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Posts: 731

Maybe limit be 1 squad IR.ober like some commander squad，3men squad with 0.25 damage reduction（3men for 320HP），and full squad with IR.STG44，no weapon slot，have camouflage，42 sight，have some different ability with normal Ober？
Like COH1 EF mod，Brandenburger，it is special force ，for special OPC ，not good？
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SpaceCow
10 Mar 2021, 17:02 PM
#74
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+1 on making IRStg a 3cp callin for variety's sake. Their performance is good enough.

Pfussiliers are really underwhelming, could use a bit of an early game boost

Arty flares could be swapped for something else, maybe Sturm Offizier like Smartie said

Valiant Assault for Grand Offensive sounds like overkill to me tbh. But it kinda fits with the doctrine. If it gets some nerfs first it could work.

Luftwaffe is already on a good spot already IMO.
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Pip
10 Mar 2021, 17:14 PM
#75
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:02 PMSpaceCow
+1 on making IRStg a 3cp callin for variety's sake. Their performance is good enough.

Pfussiliers are really underwhelming, could use a bit of an early game boost

Arty flares could be swapped for something else, maybe Sturm Offizier like Smartie said

Valiant Assault for Grand Offensive sounds like overkill to me tbh. But it kinda fits with the doctrine. If it gets some nerfs first it could work.

Luftwaffe is already on a good spot already IMO.


I don't think Fusiliers are "Underwhelming". They're really good in the lategame, it's just that they're a weird design. They're basically just Volksgrenadiers that start out worse and end up better.. there's not really anything all that "unique" about them (Except the Shreck upgrade, but I'm assuming we're talking about their stats as a G43 squad. Their Shreck upgrade is clearly fantastic)
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SpaceCow
10 Mar 2021, 17:21 PM
#76
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:14 PMPip


I don't think Fusiliers are "Underwhelming". They're really good in the lategame, it's just that they're a weird design. They're basically just Volksgrenadiers that start out worse and end up better.. there's not really anything all that "unique" about them (Except the Shreck upgrade, but I'm assuming we're talking about their stats as a G43 squad. Their Shreck upgrade is clearly fantastic)


Fair enough, IMO the 10 extra mp cost along with the mediocre base performance hinders the early game quite a bit. I agree The Shreck upgrade is really good tho
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Vipper
10 Mar 2021, 17:37 PM
#77
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:14 PMPip


I don't think Fusiliers are "Underwhelming". They're really good in the lategame, it's just that they're a weird design. They're basically just Volksgrenadiers that start out worse and end up better.. there's not really anything all that "unique" about them (Except the Shreck upgrade, but I'm assuming we're talking about their stats as a G43 squad. Their Shreck upgrade is clearly fantastic)

The 295/80 mu PF's performance in combat is not that much better than cheaper 290 Penals although there become available later...
:)
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Pip
10 Mar 2021, 17:48 PM
#78
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:37 PMVipper

The 295/80 mu PF's performance in combat is not that much better than cheaper 290 Penals although there become available later...


Fusies have a snare, flare, and regular grenade, though. I'm not entirely certain, but I'm pretty sure Fusies outfight Penals (At least in an efficiency sense) in the lategame, too... though this likely has changed somewhat with the patch.

They're not really the same unit, I don't know why you want to compare them specifically.


EDIT: Penals would be better compared with Pgrens, they ostensibly fill a similar role of a "shock" infantry to support the mainline (Grens/Conscripts), but Pgrens do the job far better. If you want to rebalance Penals I'd suggest seeing about making them come at a similar timing to Pgrens, and having a similar level of power/utility.
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Vipper
10 Mar 2021, 17:55 PM
#79
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:48 PMPip


Fusies have a snare, flare, and regular grenade, though. I'm not entirely certain, but I'm pretty sure Fusies outfight Penals (At least in an efficiency sense) in the lategame, too... though this likely has changed somewhat with the patch.

They're not really the same unit, I don't know why you want to compare them specifically.

Clearly said combat performance. And they do have lots of similarities. Similar mid far DPS, similar EHP, similar vet bonuses, but PF cost more and are available later.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:48 PMPip

EDIT: Penals would be better compared with Pgrens, they ostensibly fill a similar role of a "shock" infantry to support the mainline (Grens/Conscripts), but Pgrens do the job far better.

And Pg have higher cost by 50 and higher tech cost and thus you should be comparing their cost efficiency and not just performance.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:48 PMPip

If you want to rebalance Penals I'd suggest seeing about making them come at a similar timing to Pgrens, and having a similar level of power/utility.

I have pointed that from day one. Unfortunately we had the opposite and Pg become available earlier.

But I am going to stop here because this thread is about suggestions to OKW commander and not Penals.
:)
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ZeroZeroNi
10 Mar 2021, 18:04 PM
#80
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 10:30 AMSander93
Eh, IR STG44 Obers and Stormtroopers are not assault troops. No wonder you think they're bad.
Considering Ass grens as assault infantry have worse close range damage output then storms or obers and other such infantry of the allies side are already those you can't expect people understand this.
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