The price of asymmetrical balance

TL;DR
Arty is essential in teamgames, therefore some factions have to choose from limited number of commanders if they want to compete. This leads to boring meta. On top of the changes planned for the winter patch I think that some arty pieces need changing to increase variety, but at the cost of asymmetry in the game balance, suggestions are described below.

I play mostly 2v2 and 3v3. In the gamemodes I play, arty is the king because every now and then it wipes a squad and gives a hard time to teamweapons, which are extremely useful to control enemy infantry and vehile play. 3/5 factions have stock access to rocket arty, the remaining 2 factions have to pick arty-themed commanders (or commandos who can use stealth and light gammon bomb to decrew teamweapons) to be competitive. With these factions you pick the commander to fill the gaps in your roster in 3 out of 4 gamemodes just to have the tools that are so essential that every other faction has them stock.

Royal Arty is bugged disabling sound for non-english voicelines with OP mass flare vision, Calliope in current state is OP too considering the rate of fire, it has great area saturation with high mortality rate for anything in the target zone. It's boring to have to go Priest commander as USF every game just to have a counter to leFH (especially vet1 counterbarrage which is OP due to 0 micro required) that in teamgames reliably counters USF if unchecked (ambulance targetting etc.) .

To stand a chance in competitive teamgame players have to have arty and players choose the same meta doctrines just because of that and it's all because of the artificial asymmetrical balance. How asymmetrical is it really if there is arty involved in every single match anyway?

Please make scott doctrinal like valentine and replace it with nerfed, less deadly version of Calliope so I don't throw up when selecting the same commanders over and over again. Make leFH more in line with ML20 (remove the counterbarrage) . I know that Brits have long range mortar barrage planned for the next patch so we'll see if that solves the problem, replace the bugged and OP mass-flare with recon plane dunno.

I can imagine people complaining about Calliope becoming stock tool, but tbh it's in every match already so nothing would change for the opponents really, meanwhile fans of sexy-looking tanks like E8 could finally pick a different doctrine.

USF- Priest or Urban Commander
USSR- Terror tactics
UKF- Royal Artillery.

The number of times we have lost team games because we lacked one of the above.

Counter battery is utter bs.
ALL call in flares need to be replaced.

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Make leFH more in line with ML20 (remove the counterbarrage) . I know that Brits have long range mortar barrage planned for the next patch so we'll see if that solves the problem, replace the bugged and OP mass-flare with recon plane dunno.

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How to you suggest axis counter Sexton/Priest/ML-20/B-4 if the Lefh becomes more inline with ML-20?

How to you suggest axis counter Sexton/Priest/ML-20/B-4 if the Lefh becomes more inline with ML-20?

Sexton is underpriced imho. ML-20 and B-4 are countered the same as Lefh - with an offmap. Priest should lose some firing range to make it more similar to Sexton. As far as I remember Sexton's range is significantly shorter than the range of other howitzers and Priest already has to move fairly far forward to be able to barrage enemy Lefh position. On Across the Rhine 3v3 map you have to stand around the middle VP to barrage close to enemy base sector with Priest. If Priest had even shorter (Sexton's) range it would have to expose itself even more. It's still a mobile howitzer so it is going to be harder to kill than the immobile one, but you also pay more for it, so it should have some advantages while having shorter range.

Sexton is underpriced imho. ML-20 and B-4 are countered the same as Lefh - with an offmap. Priest should lose some firing range to make it more similar to Sexton. As far as I remember Sexton's range is significantly shorter than the range of other howitzers and Priest already has to move fairly far forward to be able to barrage enemy Lefh position. On Across the Rhine 3v3 map you have to stand around the middle VP to barrage close to enemy base sector with Priest. If Priest had even shorter (Sexton's) range it would have to expose itself even more. It's still a mobile howitzer so it is going to be harder to kill than the immobile one, but you also pay more for it, so it should have some advantages while having shorter range.

If ML-20/B-4 is countered by off map why is there a need to play Priest/Sexton in the first place?

If ML-20/B-4 is countered by off map why is there a need to play Priest/Sexton in the first place?

Ah, I see now. In the original post I wrote that as USF you have to play Priest commander (to have time on target to be able to destroy enemy leFH). Other USF offmaps can't reliably kill a leFH.

Not everyone knows the commander names by heart so I didn't want to say Infantry Company and decided to say Priest commander. I thought that this way I might avoid unnecessary confusion.

Ah, I see now. In the original post I wrote that as USF you have to play Priest commander (to have time on target to be able to destroy enemy leFH). Other USF offmaps can't reliably kill a leFH.

Then move TOT on another commander, giving both SPA and a counter to static artillery in same commander is bad design to begin with.

Other USF off map available for destroying Lefh:
Major barrage
240 MM howitzer barrage
155 barrage
Cluster mines/I&R barrage

Other USF off map available for destroying Lefh:
Major barrage
Cluster mines/I&R barrage

Unfortunately neither the I&R nor major barrages are viable as counters on the larger team mode maps, and for that matter they would barely suffice as a counter on a 1v1 map. The cluster mines(and very likely the major arty) will only kill the crew, not the weapon so you've really only set your opponent back a minimal amount of mp in exchange for a fair bit of munitions.

Granted in most team games at least SOMEONE on your team has a doctrinal off map arty not tied to a unit and combined with major recon you can divide some of the costs between players.

Unfortunately neither the I&R nor major barrages are viable as counters on the larger team mode maps, and for that matter they would barely suffice as a counter on a 1v1 map. The cluster mines(and very likely the major arty) will only kill the crew, not the weapon so you've really only set your opponent back a minimal amount of mp in exchange for a fair bit of munitions.

Granted in most team games at least SOMEONE on your team has a doctrinal off map arty not tied to a unit and combined with major recon you can divide some of the costs between players.

I&R and Major are depended on mode that is correct. One can pull them off in 2vs.

Main point here is that TOT should not be in the same commander as priest.

I&R and Major are depended on mode that is correct. One can pull them off in 2vs.

Main point here is that TOT should not be in the same commander as priest.

Sure but just because they are "stronger" in particular game modes do not make them viable counters to the unit in question in any mode. You may as well have listed "diving it with a tank destroyer" or "using a sniper on it". Its not off map artillery that counters howitzers, its off map artillery without range constraints.
And to avoid needless pedantry, I know you did not use the word "counter" but if you are going to list options to combat something, usually people list what they believe to be VIABLE options(counters).

As for ToT and priest being in the same commander, I dont see this as an issue. The issue is the format. In 3v3 and 4v4 it is inherently strong to have mobile arty like the priest and the off map arty just makes it stronger. In 1v1 you go infantry primarily for the riflemen field defenses and the 1919 lmgs but the off map helps keep it viable later on.
On the "thematic" side of things, I do think such an artillery heavy focus is odd in an "Infantry" commander but I dont think the commander is broken. It just brings things to the table that USF(or really any faction) needs in the larger game modes hence making it a must have in your USF lineup.

Sure but just because they are "stronger" in particular game modes do not make them COUNTERS to the unit in question, which they are not. Its not off map artillery that counters howitzers, its off map artillery without range constraints.

I am not sure what we are talking about here. In 1v1 or 2vs2 both the IR pathfinder and major can be used to take out Lefh. It tricky and might require using camo/smoke to pull it off but it doable. In 3vs3 and 4vs4 is rather difficult or even impossible in some maps.

As for ToT and priest being in the same commander, I dont see this as an issue. The issue is the format. In 3v3 and 4v4 it is inherently strong to have mobile arty like the priest and the off map arty just makes it stronger. In 1v1 you go infantry primarily for the riflemen field defenses and the 1919 lmgs but the off map helps keep it viable later on.
On the "thematic" side of things, I do think such an artillery heavy focus is odd in an "Infantry" commander but I dont think the commander is broken. It just brings things to the table that USF needs in the larger game modes hence making it a must have in your USF lineup.

Being able to destroy opponent with off map while having a SPA that can not really be counter by off map is simply a bad combination that should not be available.

Allow me to remind that TOT was not one a best counter to static arty (with lower cost the most) and for some bizarre reason the mod team changed it so that first shot does not scatter.

The commander was fine even with out a pin point accuracy offmap. It would be fine even with no off map that allows the commander to destroy OKW truck very easily.

Finally moving TOT to another commander would solve OP problem who complain having to chose the infatry company to counter Lefh not with priest but with TOT. USF would then have an extra commander that can counter Lefh.

The commander was fine even with point accuracy arty. It would be fine even with no off map that make the commander able to destroy OKW very easily.

Finally moving TOT to another commander would solve OP problem who complain having to chose the infatry company to counter Lefh not with priest but with TOT. USF would then have an extra commander that can counter Lefh.

Unfortunately this would make the commander LESS viable in 1v1 where it isnt super common to begin with.

And additionally the commander isnt "overperforming" in 4v4, it just has necessary tools for USF. If you take ToT and stick it in another commander people will still take Infantry because it has the priest. All you've done is weakened one of USF's primary larger game mode commanders, and one that isnt exactly overperforming compared to other nation's options.

Unfortunately this would make the commander LESS viable in 1v1 where it isnt super common to begin with.

And additionally the commander isnt "overperforming" in 4v4, it just has necessary tools for USF. If you take ToT and stick it in another commander people will still take Infantry because it has the priest. All you've done is weakened one of USF's primary larger game mode commanders, and one that isnt exactly overperforming compared to other nation's options.

Not all commander are viable in 1v1 (see Elephant)

The suggestion address the OP's problem which is having to go infatry commander to have TOT.

Other players would have the choice of going priest or TOT to counter Lefh.

Not all commander are viable in 1v1 (see Elephant)

The suggestion address the OP's problem which is having to go infatry commander to have TOT.

Other players would have the choice of going priest or TOT to counter Lefh.

No reason to make the commander less viable in 1v1 just to make it less useful in 4v4 unless its too strong which I don't think it is. In 4v4 the key tool in its roster is the priest, just like the key tool in tactical support is the calliope. If you remove ToT and put it in a different commander, people are still going to take infantry for the priest because why do you need an off map when you have a soviet ally with Mechanized Support tactics? Or Terror?


No. He was complaining about having to get the PRIEST commander to counter the Lefh. If the only thing he needed was an off map artillery strike he could have taken armor for the 240mm strike or mechanized for the 155mm or just have an ally with IL2 bombs etc.


At the beginning of his post he says "arty is essential", and given the units he's brought up I don't think he means off maps.

No reason to make the commander less viable in 1v1 just to make it less useful in 4v4 unless its too strong which I don't think it is.


No. He was complaining about having to get the PRIEST commander to counter the Lefh. If the only thing he needed was an off map artillery strike he could have taken armor for the 240mm strike or mechanized for the 155mm or just have an ally with IL2 bombs etc.


At the beginning of his post he says "arty is essential", and given the units he's brought up I don't think he means off maps.

I suggest you actually read what BlueKnight has actually posted before you start disagreeing with me.

Ah, I see now. In the original post I wrote that as USF you have to play Priest commander (to have time on target to be able to destroy enemy leFH). Other USF offmaps can't reliably kill a leFH.
...

It is actually crystal clear.

I suggest you actually read what BlueKnight has actually posted before you start disagreeing with me.



It is actually crystal clear.

Fair. Though he does mention arty "pieces" in the first paragraph of his first post which is on map not off.
And actually the entire thrust of his second paragraph is about how some factions need to select artillery commanders because they lack non doc rocket arty. Honestly I'm still fairly sure his main issue is that artillery pieces are necessary for all factions but some are limited to only having them in specific commanders.

However if all he needed was an off map to counter Lefh then USF has a number of them. I dont see anyone taking mechanized to counter lefhs.

The whole 'you don't get certain tools for asymmetry' argument has always been bullshit. Wehr, Soviets, and OKW all manage to have their own unique playstyles while still having all the necessary tools to play the game. Brits and USF get screwed over for no reason, and the holes really encourage certain playstyles against these factions (snipers, blobbing, arty wars)

As for the changes, the Priest replacing Scott seems more logical to me than the Calliope. It keeps the asymmetry while giving the faction a desperately needed tool for team games. I won't pretend the Priest is a great unit in its current form, but its better than nothing.

Land Mattress stock likewise makes the most sense to me for Brits. They desperately need a mobile arty piece that comes out before the 15 minute mark. If they needed to nerf it, they could give it a weaker base volley and then restore it with either Hammer or Anvil.

I would like to see all arty nerfed across the board. Limit priest sexton ml20 lefh to one as well as all rocket arty. It wouldnt effect 1v1 much as generally your not going to make more than 1 of these units to begin with and would do wonders for team games. Less focus on arty more into armor and infantry battles. Im so sick of having to choose rocket or arty commanders as allies and spam them and so sick of axis players being able to just spam bunkers and lefhs.

I would like to see all arty nerfed across the board. Limit priest sexton ml20 lefh to one as well as all rocket arty. It wouldnt effect 1v1 much as generally your not going to make more than 1 of these units to begin with and would do wonders for team games. Less focus on arty more into armor and infantry battles. Im so sick of having to choose rocket or arty commanders as allies and spam them and so sick of axis players being able to just spam bunkers and lefhs.

I think so too. All semblance of tactics goes out of the window when artillery spam starts. Thankfully the new patch nerfs the cooldowns for all of them, at least that is a step in the right direction.

Sorry guys, I couldn't reply for the last few days.

I suggest you actually read what BlueKnight has actually posted ...
It is actually crystal clear.

It is true that I mentioned going Infantry Company for access to Time On Target off-map artillery to destroy leFHs, however in my main post I suggested to rather make leFH a clone of ML20 as that would make it less obnoxious than it is now with the OP vet1 counter barrage ability. Spreading the anti-howitzer tools across different commanders would improve the variety though, so one could possibly swap TOT with other commander's off-map arty.

Fair. Though he does mention arty "pieces" in the first paragraph of his first post which is on map not off.
And actually the entire thrust of his second paragraph is about how some factions need to select artillery commanders because they lack non doc rocket arty. Honestly I'm still fairly sure his main issue is that artillery pieces are necessary for all factions but some are limited to only having them in specific commanders.

This is spot on, my main issue was not leFH and Infantry Company but rather current design of artillery that has always been one of the major issues of teamgames and meta commanders for large game modes.

I would like to see all arty nerfed across the board. Limit priest sexton ml20 lefh to one as well as all rocket arty. It wouldnt effect 1v1 much as generally your not going to make more than 1 of these units to begin with and would do wonders for team games. Less focus on arty more into armor and infantry battles. Im so sick of having to choose rocket or arty commanders as allies and spam them and so sick of axis players being able to just spam bunkers and lefhs.

100% agree. I am just as tired of having to play the same commanders to be able to compete in teamgames as you. This is why I started this thread, hoping that community feedback might lead to further game improvements.