The time factor

The real questions to you as member of the MOD are, is there a design decision to "give an incentive for players to rush towards their final tier"?

Is that a concussions decision or is happening without being aware of it?

I can only speak for myself but I think the incentive has always been there. It is a result from Relic's core design decisions, mostly the economy system. Unlike vCoH, CoH2 has an abundance of fuel because of the standard territory points which greatly speeds up the different phases. This is amplified in team games. The game does not have very long early and mid game phases because of how quickly these get outclassed by the next phase, encouraging or even forcing players to not get caught up too much in one phase. There is nothing we can do about that without completely redesigning the economy and factions, which isn't something we'd be allowed to do at this stage. We can only work with what we got, and that is that rushing T4/armor is amongst the most powerful/reliable strategies.

I can only speak for myself but I think the incentive has always been there. It is a result from Relic's core design decisions, mostly the economy system. Unlike vCoH, CoH2 has an abundance of fuel because of the standard territory points which greatly speeds up the different phases. This is amplified in team games. The game does not have very long early and mid game phases because of how quickly these get outclassed by the next phase, encouraging or even forcing players to not get caught up too much in one phase. There is nothing we can do about that without completely redesigning the economy and factions, which isn't something we'd be allowed to do at this stage. We can only work with what we got, and that is that rushing T4/armor is amongst the most powerful/reliable strategies.

What if a cache only applied on the player who built it?
What if tech cost increased so the timing between phase is greater and low tier units have a role to play?

And we have the first opinion to the original question, thank you.

May ask what mode of the game you prefer?

Would prefer it if the tech was simplified even more in CoH3 (if this ever happens) so that player had even less decision to make regarding tech?

I wouldn't mind if in CoH3 each faction had an Ostheer-like tech design. With Ostheer you have to make strategic choices on how you spend your resources, but you have the freedom to assign these resources wherever you see fit. Want to go for a FHT but also have LMG42 weapon upgrades? You can! But you have to put focus on the munition points instead of the fuel. It also makes sure you always have the required counters on-hand. This is great design since it plays into CoHs biggest strength, its challenging tactical combined arms gameplay and emphesis on map-control.

Side techs detract from this gameplay experience. It just leads to unit spam (You invested into upgrades for unit A so you are not going to use unit B), cheese wins/losses (P2 rush vs old Soviet T1) and players not being able to spend their resources or having to spend it on 1 or 2 things only (See brits early and midgame for example).

What if a cache only applied on the player who built it?

Caches are only a minimal cause of resource inflation in teamgames. The biggest cause is the more static gameplay, with only a few frontline territories being fought over, leading to a more constant control of a team's own resource points compared to the more fluid gameplay and constant decaps and cutoffs in 1v1 and to some extend 2v2.

What if tech cost increased so the timing between phase is greater and low tier units have a role to play?

That wouldn't really work well with the current faction designs. If we'd just slap more fuel on tank tech, UKF and Ostheer would suffer because they lack the heavier light (AI) vehicles.

Caches are only a minimal cause of resource inflation in teamgames. The biggest cause is the more static gameplay, with only a few frontline territories being fought over, leading to a more constant control of a team's own resource points compared to the more fluid gameplay and constant decaps and cutoffs in 1v1 and to some extend 2v2.



That wouldn't really work well with the current faction designs. If we'd just slap more fuel on tank tech, UKF and Ostheer would suffer because they lack the heavier light (AI) vehicles.

Would it be possible to just reduce the income gained from territory points in certain modes? Or might it even be possible to put an "upkeep" on Fuel/Munitions based on number of units/fuel using units? I'm not sure if that's hardcoded to be only a "manpower" thing... or even whether Lelic would allow you to fiddle with it.

Would it be possible to just reduce the income gained from territory points in certain modes? Or might it even be possible to put an "upkeep" on Fuel/Munitions based on number of units/fuel using units? I'm not sure if that's hardcoded to be only a "manpower" thing... or even whether Lelic would allow you to fiddle with it.

As I checked, the number can only change while in game affected by resource, state, health...Can not be fixed for different mode.

@Sander93
Idea 1: Remove fuel/ammo point and replaced with basic point. So the battle can be spread equally on the field, rather than "rush 2 fuel". But eventually, players can still put a cache to rush fuel anyway.

Idea 2: Decrease fuel resource by 1. Basic point 2fuel/5ammo. Fuel point 6fuel. Cache keep the same.

Idea 3: Decrease basic point on each side by 1 or 2. General mud has 7 basic points on each side,1 fuel & 1 ammo. That would push resource by at least 28fuel/46ammo per min. Not mention sometimes a side can dominate and get 2 fuel, then may be add 4-5 cache on. Its pretty much you can buy a Light every 2min, Med every 4min.

Idea 4: To promote early tier units gameplay. May be reduce Light tank/vehicle fuel by 10-20% if they get to the next tech. I know this is possible to mod, but Im not sure about balance.

I'd probably also suggest severely reducing the benefit of Caches. They're only really used in team modes already, so it wouldn't (Meaningfully) affect 1v1s.

Any amount of extra resources, coupled with the protection they give to points, would be enough to justify their building, but there's little need for them to be QUITE so lucrative.

I wouldn't mind if in CoH3 each faction had an Ostheer-like tech design. With Ostheer you have to make strategic choices on how you spend your resources, but you have the freedom to assign these resources wherever you see fit. Want to go for a FHT but also have LMG42 weapon upgrades? You can! But you have to put focus on the munition points instead of the fuel. It also makes sure you always have the required counters on-hand. This is great design since it plays into CoHs biggest strength, its challenging tactical combined arms gameplay and emphesis on map-control.

Side techs detract from this gameplay experience. It just leads to unit spam (You invested into upgrades for unit A so you are not going to use unit B), cheese wins/losses (P2 rush vs old Soviet T1) and players not being able to spend their resources or having to spend it on 1 or 2 things only (See brits early and midgame for example).

And I have to guess that probably prefer large modes where teching choices are more forgiving.
Your preference is respected.

Imo though tech choices add an extra layer to game especially in small mode. One has to calculate which investment will pay off better depending on number factors like including his opponent faction, his opponent build, map control...

The imo creates the possibility of much more builds instead of the same meta again and again.

Since you have mentioned Ostheer tech I would like use them as an example of what mean. When USF where introduced,they where so versatile that when playing ostheer one had to predict his opponents build and prepare a counter unit or one would lose.

Since the game has allot simpler economy than other RTS (where a player has to choose whether to invest in economy tech or combat tech) imo making combat tech less predictable improves the game and allows more room for diversity in builds.

I can only speak for myself but I think the incentive has always been there.

That answer my question that there has not been a conscious decision by the MOD team.

It is a result from Relic's core design decisions, mostly the economy system. Unlike vCoH, CoH2 has an abundance of fuel because of the standard territory points which greatly speeds up the different phases. This is amplified in team games. The game does not have very long early and mid game phases because of how quickly these get outclassed by the next phase, encouraging or even forcing players to not get caught up too much in one phase. There is nothing we can do about that without completely redesigning the economy and factions, which isn't something we'd be allowed to do at this stage. We can only work with what we got, and that is that rushing T4/armor is amongst the most powerful/reliable strategies.

That is all correct, there are huge difference between COH1 and COH2 economy.
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Going to COH1 system in not realistic option but looking within the the COH2 system one will notice than since the MOD team has taken over of there a continues serious of tech changes reducing cost and allowing access to everything that turn tech choice to more "linear" system.

That imo creates a number of problems. One of the biggest is greatly decreases build diversity since player are "given an incentive to rush towards their final tier" creating a singe optimum tech choice.

That also reduces the "strategic" element of the game since the is a single optimum strategy.

I really hope that the MOD take this into consideration and have a real debate on the issue. If the MOD continues down this direction of less tech choices imo it should at least be a concussions decision that was taken after proper thinking instead of something that just happened.

Going to COH1 system in not realistic option but looking within the the COH2 system one will notice than since the MOD team has taken over of there a continues serious of tech changes reducing cost and allowing access to everything that turn tech choice to more "linear" system.

That imo creates a number of problems. One of the biggest is greatly decreases build diversity since player are "given an incentive to rush towards their final tier" creating a singe optimum tech choice.

That also reduces the "strategic" element of the game since the is a single optimum strategy.

I really hope that the MOD take this into consideration and have a real debate on the issue. If the MOD continues down this direction of less tech choices imo it should at least be a concussions decision that was taken after proper thinking instead of something that just happened.

I think what you mean is that the builds between games can become more similar since it is easier to back off of a failing strategy and fall back on something that is working. That I would support, but saying that having more units available decreases build diversity within a single game does not make sense, neither using pure rational nor real in game experience.

I disagree with your points though, because they have a base assumption that was just not there: that the game allowed for multiple builds when the mod team took over. This is not true, there were meta strats back then and playing off meta was even worse than today. Back then if you committed as, say Ostheer, fully to T3 but your strategy failed, the game was already over with no chance to recover (or a call in commander, support weapon spam etc etc). In that regard, the game was already linear teching back then because some tiers were simply not viable.

I don't assume that Relic assured the mod team continous patches for 2+ years back then, so their most viable option (especially regarding that they are not a dev team) was to take the smallest steps with the highest gain possible.

Everything else would have likely taken a real dev team that works on it full time, at least until the foundation for multiple tech paths is laid out properly. But obviously no one can expect that from 'free' workers that don't even get full mod tools.

CoH2 further amplifies that issue with their faction design: Does every faction need to have 2+ tech paths?. Not all factions had all basic tools at hand (USF lacking either MG or ATG, UKF lacking smoke and snares, OKW lacking T2 healing that does not force you to dump all your munis...). How do we deal with that? Factions that lack something need to be OP in other regards, but then what if they DO tech everything? Default win? Are techs exclusive? How do we cramp enough utility into 3 units per tech (adding more is not an option) without breaking these? This is one of the main problems this game had for ages. Even Relic could not fix these although they had theoretically more resources and started with a full design of the faction in mind. Yes, maybe many of these issues could have been fixed by number tweaking alone, but this is a HUGE undertaking that does not make sense if you don't know how long Relic support will go. And I don't blame them for taking the easier and more obvious router.

Now the only thing I think you can really critisize the members of the mod team for is that they (afaik) never discussed their vision of the game in case we get as many patches as we got now. For the most part, only Sanders posted his visions, but also that only more recently. If I don't misremember, there was no 'if possible, faction X should look like this...' message that the community could agree or disagree with. But this is almost as much Relics fault as well for almost completely cutting support for one of their games and handing it over to the community without any directions or control.

What we now have after 2-3 years of community patching is undoubtedly a better game with more units and viable builds than ever. Yes, part of this price was to make gameplay more similar and you can critisize that for sure. But saying that the game was better and more diverse before they took over is plainly wrong and leaves out that we basically moved from abusive strat to a different one between patches (almost as we do now), but in contrast to that there was next to no strat outside of the meta.

And I have to guess that probably prefer large modes where teching choices are more forgiving.
Your preference is respected.

Imo though tech choices add an extra layer to game especially in small mode. One has to calculate which investment will pay off better depending on number factors like including his opponent faction, his opponent build, map control...

The imo creates the possibility of much more builds instead of the same meta again and again.

Since you have mentioned Ostheer tech I would like use them as an example of what mean. When USF where introduced,they where so versatile that when playing ostheer one had to predict his opponents build and prepare a counter unit or one would lose.

Since the game has allot simpler economy than other RTS (where a player has to choose whether to invest in economy tech or combat tech) imo making combat tech less predictable improves the game and allows more room for diversity in builds.

Quite the contrary. My 1v1 to big team ratio is like 5 to 1. CoH doesn't have deep and impactfull teching choices even in 1v1. Which is good as this game isn't suited for it.


What you want to see works in a game like Starcraft 2, but it can't work in CoH2. Having to guess what your opponent is doing on penalty of defeat is not good game design.

Take the two games.
SC2 has a ton of cheeses and tech choices that required specific counters in order to beat. This was fine as the game gave all the tools to a player to see what was comming. In the early game you could check the base with a worker unit. Did you see 2x gas and no expension? Some high tech cheese will hit you, prepare yourself! The economy in SC2 was a huge give-away to what your opponent was doing. How many expansions, how many workers were there at which time, how many gas was collected etc. Then there were also the tech buildings themselves, you could see what the opponent was actually capable of building and prepare for it.

None of these things you can do in CoH2. You can't scout a base due to the HMGs and even then you likely won't see anything. You can't spy on someones economy as all resources are passive and don't require any investment. In contrast to the early double gas example in SC2, a player holding both fuel points in CoH2 is under no obligation to tech faster than usual since his fuel income didn't cost him anything. If you want to make tech choices impactfull, you have to make it so that it requires actual investment (i.e. capture points give no resources and need cashes built first) and give players to tools to be able to accurately predict what the enemy will throw at you (for example each unit gets their own building and base MGs are removed). At which point you are losing out on the best part of CoH2, the tactical rather than the strategic gameplay.

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It does not really matter how many different units are available if "last tier rush" is the optimum strategy. Unit/tech that delay that strategy will simply be avoided.

I disagree with your points though, because they have a base assumption that was just not there: that the game allowed for multiple builds when the mod team took over. Show Spoiler

That is not the "base assumption" nor is this a thread claims that everything was roses when Relic was doing patches and everything is bad when the MOD team took over.

The basis of this thread is the patch notes (included in op) and series of changes over in many patches that are have reduced tech cost and "back tech" cost (I would add here making many doctrinal vehicles available only via last tier). This clearly makes a "last tier rush" strategy more efficient.

Even Sander93 posted did not deny such a trend and said: "incentive has always been there"

I don't assume that Relic assured the mod team continous patches for 2+ years back then, so their most viable option (especially regarding that they are not a dev team) was to take the smallest steps with the highest gain possible.

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Relic was never a fun a the "smallest" steps, on the contrary Relic was notorious for overbuffing and overnerfing things in their patches.

Neither did the MOD patches used small step (at least early pachtes)on the contrary some of the MOD patches where the most radical ones.

That is actually one of my first feedbacks:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/52735/balance-mod-trying-to-kill-a-fly-with-sledgehammer
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57771/why-patch-should-not-overbuff-overnerf-units-anymore

Only recently there have been comments that indicated that MOD has started to realize how sensitive to change the COH2 ecosystem is. Even now many changes seem to be away from "the smallest steps" since they include multiple buff or nerf in the same unit.

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And I don't blame them for taking the easier and more obvious router.

This thread is no way meant to put "blame" on the MOD team. I have always congratulated and supported the MOD for all their hard work, even when I do not agree with the specific changes.

Now the only thing I think you can really critisize the members of the mod team for is that they (afaik) never discussed their vision of the game in case we get as many patches as we got now. Show Spoiler

This is an issue but a separate one but I think it run deeper than not communicating the a vision for each fraction.

I suspect there is not real vision since I doubt Relic has given the authority to MOD teams to design factions. Even if they did doubt it would work since the mode team probably work as team and vision requires someone to be in change to have it.

As for Sander93 am under the impression that he acts as spokesmen for the MOD team.

I do have to point out that, most of this is speculations on my behalf and there is little point in debating unless the MOD team decided to share more light on subject.

What we now have after 2-3 years of community patching is undoubtedly a better game with more units and viable builds than ever.Show Spoiler

This post is not about weather the game has improved or not when the MOD team took over from Relic. (The sheer number of bugs fixes is an improvement on its own)

On the other hand I do have to point that Super heavy meta and Ostt/WC51 showcase is an indication that MOD team has not manged to solve diversity issues yet.

This threat aims to explain how, imo, tech options can serve more than just a "time factor". Imo one can use the tech choices to add a layer of strategy behind the game making more than just focusing on micro and how it can increase the number of valid strategies and build orders.

I will SU-76 use as random example but the specifics here are not really important.

No matter how much buffs SU-76 it probably not see allot of action in T3 if it delays the optimum strategy of "rushing final tier". Once T4 is unlocked it will still not see allot of action since the SU-85 would now be available and perform better.

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Comparing Coh2 with Start craft other RTS is not really helpful because COH series has a completely simplified economy and player does not really make strategic desicion by choosing between investing in the economy or in combat (fighting units/combat tech) .

As I have already pointed out to you in previous post if one compares COH1 to COH2 one will see that in many cases the tech choices a player had to make where more impactful and in way added at extra layer of play.

But that is not even my point. Using the "June 2016 patch" as base of reference, there has been a series of continuous changes that promote the "rush to last Tier" strategy.

That imo is not a good direction for reasons I have explained (but can clarify if you want me too).

I was going slightly off topic - sorry for that -, but I think I at least properly responded to one of your posts. I will keep it shorter and more focused in this one.

It does not really matter how many different units are available if "last tier rush" is the optimum strategy. Unit/tech that delay that strategy will simply be avoided.

Apart from maybe the very first versions of the game (I did not play on release, but what I vaguely remember from 2014/15 is that Soviets had a split tech path and the T34 for example was in T3 or so), the game has been designed for a last tier rush ever since. The only exception being Ostheer since Osts T3 can actually deal with most of Allied armor.

That is not the "base assumption" nor is this a thread claims that everything was roses when Relic was doing patches and everything is bad when the MOD team took over.

The basis of this thread is the patch notes (included in op) and series of changes over in many patches that are have reduced tech cost and "back tech" cost (I would add here making many doctrinal vehicles available only via last tier). This clearly makes a "last tier rush" strategy more efficient.

You said since the balance team took over tech paths have become more linear and therefore builds less diverse, which implies that it was the opposite before (I never said you were assuming everything was perfect back in the day, but essentially this thread exists because you think CoH2 got worse at least in this special regard).
I agree: Units have become more available in general. Mostly though, changes aimed to give every faction similar tools (all factions should have access to MG, ATG, mortars, a source of smoke etc...). Back teching often does not diminish the window of opportunity for units. If, e.g., A Soviet T1 player backtechs to ATG in the mid game, neither the windows of opportunity of Luchs/Puma nor of a P4 are diminished.
You cite CoH1 as a good example of needing to chose techs exclusivle (I never played it so I can't judge). But for the most part these exclusive tech structures just brought a lot of problems for balance and are partially still not solved (SOV, USF and OKW all T1/2).

Even Sander93 posted did not deny such a trend and said: "incentive has always been there"

Relic was never a fun a the "smallest" steps, on the contrary Relic was notorious for overbuffing and overnerfing things in their patches.

Neither did the MOD patches used small step (at least early pachtes)on the contrary some of the MOD patches where the most radical ones. [will snip the rest for brevity]

Sanders post makes it unclear whether he is talking about balance team or CoH2 in general. Because in all versions of CoH2 the lighter vehicles got more and more useless when heavier versions came out. The Scout car was never useful past minute 6-7+, the 222/251 were also only useful until another "heavier" LV hit the field and even more diminished in usefulness once medium tanks arrived. There have been some other strats (like SU76 spam) that worked as well, but many were based on call-in strats that bring their own problems as well.

Regarding the "smallest steps": Balance team changed tech paths as much as needed (see USF), but if there were two potential solutions to a problem, they usually took the one that costs less effort, would be easier to fix/revert if it turned out bad or the one that had the most predictable consequences (in the end, these were mostly stat tweaks).

To repeat myself: In this game, there has always been an incentive to tech up and get better armor on the field. The only way to not play like this are rush tactics were you put all eggs into one basket and can insta-forfeit if you fail the strat.

As the last point, I want to come to what - I think - is the core of this discussion:
Lighter vehicles become less useful the longer the game goes, sometimes even to the point where it is almost better to throw them away. If light vehicles were useful in the late game, there would be less incentive to get your highest tier up asap. But they are not, so every one wants heavier tanks quicker than their opponent.
In other threads you often suggested to prolong game phases by delaying units. I already remarked how this would cause reworks for the power level of most units although I generally agree. But in the end it would not solve the problem: Last tier would still be top choice, you'd just need longer to get it. And the player that can use these units first wins if the other one does not tech up.
The only real solution is to increase late game utility of early units. I once made a whole thread about this so I will not repeat myself now, but balance team also implemented a ton of these utility buffs for light vehicles and is still expanding them in the current patch.

I was going slightly off topic Show Spoiler

Not an issue it was an interesting post non the less.

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the game has been designed for a last tier rush ever since. Show Spoiler

Soviet had different tech system with 2 building and doctrinal unit up until "July 2015 patch".

But lets avoid going at before the Soviet/OKW tech revamp since the game is completely different.

The game was never designed or played for "last tier rush" actually most strategies revolved avoiding even teching to last tier and using doctrinal call in vehicles instead.

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Back teching often does not diminish the window of opportunity for units. Show Spoiler

The pace of the game is related but it not really the point of this threat. This thread has more to with tech being used as simple time factor (similar to CP) or tech being more important having the add utility of being used for strategic decisions by the player

You cite CoH1 as a good example of needing to chose techs exclusivle (I never played it so I can't judge). But for the most part these exclusive tech structures just brought a lot of problems for balance and are partially still not solved (SOV, USF and OKW all T1/2).

Imo trying to "fix" this problem without clearly redesigning the faction created far more issues than is solve and that has also to do Relic.

USF unit are prime example of this. One can not take a faction is designed with unit that are OP in order to cover hole in the roaster, and suddenly give access to all the roaster expect that everything will be fine.

Sanders post makes it unclear whether he is talking about balance team or CoH2 in general. Because in all versions of CoH2 the lighter vehicles got more and more useless when heavier versions came out. The Scout car was never useful past minute 6-7+, the 222/251 were also only useful until another "heavier" LV hit the field and even more diminished in usefulness once medium tanks arrived. There have been some other strats (like SU76 spam) that worked as well, but many were based on call-in strats that bring their own problems as well.

That is more of window of opportunity issue.

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they usually took the one that costs less effort, would be easier to fix/revert iShow Spoiler

I simply can not agree with this but I would rather not comment since I have little reason to criticize the work the MOD team has done. I would rather thank them for the effort.
Feel free to contact me via PM if you interested in more detailed response.

To repeat myself: In this game, there has always been an incentive to tech up and get better armor on the field. The only way to not play like this are rush tactics were you put all eggs into one basket and can insta-forfeit if you fail the strat.

Simply no, call-in stalling has been viable strategy for a longer part this game lifespan.
Locking Super heavies in tech was the final nail in the coffin (and for no apparent reason I might add).

As the last point, I want to come to what - I think - is the core of this discussion:
Lighter vehicles become less useful the longer the game goes, sometimes even to the point where it is almost better to throw them away. If light vehicles were useful in the late game, there would be less incentive to get your highest tier up asap. But they are not, so every one wants heavier tanks quicker than their opponent.
In other threads you often suggested to prolong game phases by delaying units. I already remarked how this would cause reworks for the power level of most units although I generally agree. But in the end it would not solve the problem: Last tier would still be top choice, you'd just need longer to get it. And the player that can use these units first wins if the other one does not tech up.
The only real solution is to increase late game utility of early units. I once made a whole thread about this so I will not repeat myself now, but balance team also implemented a ton of these utility buffs for light vehicles and is still expanding them in the current patch.

For me window of opportunity for unit is only partially related to the issue of the thread.

This thread is about the concept that the optimum way to play the game would be to "rush final tier" and then back tech if you need too. That imo is simply a bad direction for the game to go for a number of reason:
It make a build order stale
It removes decision making from player
It practically removes the tech difference of faction

In the end of the day I do not really see any benefits from it.

I agree with Vipper. Another rush and compress 'patch'. We have seen over the years, Coh2 TTK are getting smaller windows, RNG & status effects are being silently negated, factions are given similar symmetrical tools.

It seems the original intent of the game is taken over by a few top 1v1 players who are hell bent to make this game 'competitive', coh2 will never catch on as your typical 'esport' big viewerships, big hype, big prize $$$ lame-a-ton.

The further the push, i am happy to see coh2 fall over the cliff like dow3. If i cant have it, then let it die.

I agree with Vipper. Another rush and compress 'patch'. We have seen over the years, Coh2 TTK are getting smaller windows, RNG & status effects are being silently negated, factions are given similar symmetrical tools.

It seems the original intent of the game is taken over by a few top 1v1 players who are hell bent to make this game 'competitive', coh2 will never catch on as your typical 'esport' big viewerships, big hype, big prize $$$ lame-a-ton.

The further the push, i am happy to see coh2 fall over the cliff like dow3. If i cant have it, then let it die.

how can a game that is still played 7 years after its release "fall of the cliff like dow3". that game didnt last a week

how can a game that is still played 7 years after its release "fall of the cliff like dow3". that game didnt last a week

it still can, if patches keep pushing coh2 towards esports dream like dow3.
so even the 7000 regular coh2 players will drop and die off.

as i mentioned, another 'buff' planned, is the smoke barrage buffs! Hey lets think of ways to speed up the games more, lets make blinding defense position more easier. meh.