Does anyone else think it's a problem Panzer IVs...

...are usually the first medium tanks to hit the field even though they're significantly more powerful than the Allied equivalents.

I've seen I don't know how many games between pros and casual players alike where they're trying to fight off a Panzer IV (usually supported by Schreks or AT guns) with a Sherman, Stuart or just a couple bazookas.

Teching costs for British or Soviets isn't quite as excessive as what USF has to pay but even then their mediums aren't great.

Well, I always hear justifications that ended up resulting in significantly lower costs for WM teching. Prior to this, panzer IV was not first. I say this thinking back on all the forum conversations I read over time (since release). I don't watch a lot of pro 1v1 games, but I wouldn't be surprised to see panzer IV showing up first, even though it costs more and performs better than all allied non doct mediums. Well, people are constantly complaining of having difficulty dealing with allied armor. I can't relate, I've never really had any difficulty being effective against any allied player. I don't beat any allied player, but I can be effective. Kind of makes axis boring for me, because if the player playing allies is not at my skill level or better, it's a horrible beating. I don't think you'll find a lot of people that will find a problem with the quick panzer IV deployments, we all want it this way. Makes the game better.

Its not a problem for me persee, but it is strange, considering that they are better in dps and armour then allied meds. At least cromw and sherman give utility to make up for it. No biggie there just a simatry.

The t34 however should be the first to be fielded most of the time. Considering how weak and low impact a single t34 is. This has to with the t70 basicly being part tech cost. You wont survive mid game without it most likely. If somehow mid game didnt depend so much on it you could save fuel and get a t34 out much quicker, and it will have some shock value unlike now.

Maybe the changes to tech and 7th man will swith the midgame up and you going t34 rush becomes viable. We will have to wait and see.

t70 is a better medium than the t34 lol

t70 is a better medium than the t34 lol

In ai dps and speed for sure. It at and durability are worse then even a t34 and that saying something lol.

In ai dps and speed for sure. It at and durability are worse then even a t34 and that saying something lol.

I'd even argue that the t70 has better durability mainly because it has really great agility. Easy to go in and out of danger, whereas the T34 can easily get stuck in a firefight gone awry.

It is funny that the best stock medium tanks are the first one to be fielded (both P4s), whereas the T34 is not fielded at all unless you have double ZiS and no T34 85 commander. Delay the P4 and a lot of people will complain so I'm thinking that's a no-no. But I also don't think it's that bad. I've never had any problems dealing with anything axis related, neither with anything allies related when playing axis. The game is pretty well balanced I'd say. With or without fast P4s

It is funny that the best stock medium tanks are the first one to be fielded (both P4s),

In which world does the OKW P4 come earlier than allied medium tanks?

In which world does the OKW P4 come earlier than allied medium tanks?

In the meta one, where allies need to pay additional 70 fuel to get a light to keep pressure against ost and get rid of their own earlier lv, which results in pretty much guaranteed P4 being 1st on the field as long as ost is prepared and doesn't get instantly pushed of the map by it.

Main reason for P4 coming out is because allies meta is nowadays all the time trying to dominate that early-mid game with their "heavier" light vehicles, Daimler, Stuart, T70. T34 can come out very early if a player goes for it and not take out t70, it's not like russian faction doesn't have AT capabability to fend off LV play from OST without having T70.

...are usually the first medium tanks to hit the field even though they're significantly more powerful than the Allied equivalents.

I've seen I don't know how many games between pros and casual players alike where they're trying to fight off a Panzer IV (usually supported by Schreks or AT guns) with a Sherman, Stuart or just a couple bazookas.

Teching costs for British or Soviets isn't quite as excessive as what USF has to pay but even then their mediums aren't great.

You will have to clarify whether you mean both pz IVs or just the OST one as the only way the OKW one comes out early is if the OKW player goes med tank rush and can be read like a book when doing so.

In the meta one, where allies need to pay additional 70 fuel to get a light to keep pressure against ost and get rid of their own earlier lv, which results in pretty much guaranteed P4 being 1st on the field as long as ost is prepared and doesn't get instantly pushed of the map by it.

Reading comprehension 0/10.

I was talking about the OKW P4 this has nothing to do with Ostheer.

In which world does the OKW P4 come earlier than allied medium tanks?

In most worlds. In 1v1s, allies have to get T70 or stuart or AEC on top of optional (highly needed) unlocks or ambulance. OST P4 comes earlier all the time, OKW P4 comes a little bit later but most of the time still earlier than allied mediums. I'm ok with that. Never had any problems with it. Especially if the axis player knows that the enemy is going for the AEC or stuart so the preferable (albeit harder to control) action is just going pak/raketen (since stuart and AEC are not that good vs infantry so you don't need to invest a lot to get them off the field) and saving the puma fuel or something like that. I might have not been clear enough. They won't always come earlier, but in most 1v1s they will. Teamgames even more since soviets usually like to rush IS2/ISU/KVs... unless the fuel has been lost for most of the time so one has to get ZiS and SU85 (expecting earlier tigers and kings). Same with brits about their Comet/Churchill. As USF I like to go E8 or Jacksons. Most of my allied USF teammates also do that (or rush Pershing). Usually in teamgames it's not preferable to go for cromwell or T34 since they can easily be shut down in such high population games (hence why even OST P4s are a rare sight). Only time I've seen cromwells, T34s and OST P4s being built in 3v3s was when you go for a fast game shutdown. All or nothing. OKW P4 is great all around with high armour and Sherman has great utility for every stage of the game. As I've said, that's for 3v3+, which is another story altogether, especially with the poor map pool and map designs that favor high frontal armours and rocket arty (lane-y like Hamburger, RedBlob, Angrymundy...etc......... shoutout to the makers of the best map Whiteball).

Reading comprehension 0/10.

I was talking about the OKW P4 this has nothing to do with Ostheer.

I did had exhausting week, so I'll just nod here.

Ost one arrives early, not okw one indeed.

Main reason for P4 coming out is because allies meta is nowadays all the time trying to dominate that early-mid game with their "heavier" light vehicles, Daimler, Stuart, T70. T34 can come out very early if a player goes for it and not take out t70, it's not like russian faction doesn't have AT capabability to fend off LV play from OST without having T70.

People dont get the t70 for at, they get the t70 for its ai. Soviets dont get early upgrades or nades or great mg's for their inf to cause mp bleed.
In live cons only shine at t4, much later then axis inf. Maxim being meh at best dont help much in that regard as well.

As OST I rarely have issues with Allied LVs because of AT guns and the really early Panzergrens. The Panzergrens also offset the Allied infantry advantage as well with the exception of Penals. So when the P4 rolls out it stomps what's left of my opponent.

As for OKW, that P4 takes longer but it has an even greater impact. Teching for OKW moves much faster though, they get that Heavy panzer HQ up in no time. So you may roll out a Sherman or Cromwell a minute or two sooner but those are hopelessly out classed. The P4J is best multirole tank and kills infantry and armor very well, you don't even have to switch shells.

Can we please stop repeating the silly "switching shells" argument about the Sherman.

It has been died and buried for year now so pls stop trying to resurrect it.

It is odd having the T34 come so late, you nearly always want a doctrinal tank instead. The point a 43/76 lands its up against so much AT, it cant stay at fight long at all. Its only useful as a later unit for flank protection / ram.

You *could* make it so you can build T4 without T3, but only the T34/76 is buildable until you also get T3. Would make it easier to go for a fast T34 giving it a little more impact. Shouldnt be too OP.