When are Panzerfusiliers getting nerfed?

Short and sweet: I say they are balanced, no need for nerfs.

Panzerfussiliers need a buff if anything imo, their early performance is extremely poor and even though their scaling is very good it's hardly worth the opening stages where they bleed you of both mp and munitions before becoming decent at vet 2/3

No one going to say it? Okay. Panzerfusiliers get zero survivability from vet before vet 3 and drop (1 size!) models like crazy before then. Even volks are more durable at vet 1, model for model.

They are fine(?)

EDIT: Ok Elpern touched on it.

No one going to say it? Okay. Panzerfusiliers get zero survivability from vet before vet 3 and drop (1 size!) models like crazy before then. Even volks are more durable at vet 1, model for model.

Key words there are "from vet" and "model to model". They get an extra man from their upgrade, so you can't really leave that out if you're gonna talk about survivability

They also get the snare without tech which is a huge bonus over volks early game

Of course they are softer compared to Volks, so they don't go Ubersoldat mode when they get their upgrade, Volks get their RA bonuses early (Vet 1-2) and can build Sandbags too.

Just because Volks are really good doesn't mean they need to make each other OKW Infantry busted to compete with them.

Key words there are "from vet" and "model to model". They get an extra man from their upgrade, so you can't really leave that out if you're gonna talk about survivability

They also get the snare without tech which is a huge bonus over volks early game

Yes, they get an extra man from a 80(?) muni upgrade. But that's a very expensive upgrade that is delayed by contested maps. Usage of grenades, mines and/or snares will further delay the G43s, keeping you potentially with a 5 man squad.

As for the 6 men squad, they are direct combat wise better than Stg volks, but can't build sandbags either relegating them to mostly light cover and the occasional bit of heavy you can find.

To people who think pzfusilier blobs are too much, wait until you meet the M1919 blob that has a smoke (CPT)!

The MPP price for Gg43 PF should be considered 295 +Mu.

I was referring to stock Panzerfusiliers without the G43 upgrade.

Pfussies are strong. No doubt about it. Overall strong units. But not OP

Pfussies are strong. No doubt about it. Overall strong units. But not OP

Agreed. They are versatile and provide some much needed doctrinal anti-infantry and anti-tank options for the OKW.

Yes, they get an extra man from a 80(?) muni upgrade. But that's a very expensive upgrade that is delayed by contested maps.

For what you get 80 muni is a bargain. Extra man, bonus sight, on top of the weapon upgrade

Every weapon upgrade is delayed by contested maps...

Usage of grenades, mines and/or snares will further delay the G43s, keeping you potentially with a 5 man squad.

Then choose what you spend your muni on? Unlocking grenades in the first place delays your tech for some factions, decisions are a part of the game for everyone

As for the 6 men squad, they are direct combat wise better than Stg volks, but can't build sandbags either relegating them to mostly light cover and the occasional bit of heavy you can find.

They get bonus sight, flares, longer range snare, and they are very strong on-the-move so they don't need cover as much anyway

To people who think pzfusilier blobs are too much, wait until you meet the M1919 blob that has a smoke (CPT)!

What does this have to do with anything? Both blobs can be a problem

they get a lot for the 80 muni because until then they are useless. Have you actually used them to see how bad they are vanilla? they lose to conscripts. Badly. They are not even meta and people argue they should be nerfed because why not.

No one going to say it? Okay. Panzerfusiliers get zero survivability from vet before vet 3 and drop (1 size!) models like crazy before then. Even volks are more durable at vet 1, model for model.

They are fine(?)

EDIT: Ok Elpern touched on it.

Yeah I find them to be the opposite of Ostruppen, pretty weak in 1v1 but can be decent in team games. Since in team games you can mitigate their weak early game with a teammate and the scaling into the mid-late game is pretty nice in larger game modes.

Yeah I find them to be the opposite of Ostruppen, pretty weak in 1v1 but can be decent in team games. Since in team games you can mitigate their weak early game with a teammate and the scaling into the mid-late game is pretty nice in larger game modes.

This. They can be decent/good in 3v3 and 4v4 but suck in 1v1 because of the horrible early game performance. They are not even close to being OP.

They are fine as they are and don't require nerfs apart from removing the extra weapon slot after upgrading G43s as this is likely unintended and just an oversight.

For what you get 80 muni is a bargain. Extra man, bonus sight, on top of the weapon upgrade
Every weapon upgrade is delayed by contested maps...
Then choose what you spend your muni on? Unlocking grenades in the first place delays your tech for some factions, decisions are a part of the game for everyone

They are, but let's not assume that 6 man fusiliers are guaranteed to feature in the comparison. Their weaker early game should be factored in, not just their upgrade-onwards power. I'm not complaining about the price of the upgrade, but pointing out the weak early power of the unit which is often forgotten. You can expect to lose vs all mainlines before the upgrade. The price is fine balance wise imho with the weak early game taken into account.

They get bonus sight, flares, longer range snare, and they are very strong on-the-move so they don't need cover as much anyway

Volks get +7 bonus sight in cover with vet IV, pzf get their sight much earlier (testing says it's practically the same number). Offizier has 50 sight range if you really need the extra sight or a kubel. Flare is a big plus yes. The snare is longer range true, but has one of the longest wind-ups in the game at which point the target (LV?) can be far out of sight range by the time it lands. And then retreat to safety. Running around out of cover (under fire) before vet III is a surefire way to bleed your MP unnecessarily and it'll bleed a lot with that 1 model size. Allied mainlines typically feature an accuracy or cooldown buff at Vet II then so expect to get shredded squad for squad (At vet II) in a shootout. Your +40% accuracy at vet II won't mean much when half your squad is gone vs that enemy squad with improved dps and survivability.

What does this have to do with anything? Both blobs can be a problem

It was aimed at the OP, not you specifically.

tl;dr: I think the unit's fine and this thread is pointless.

PFüs are fine. You trade early game field presence (Volks are 10 mp cheaper, can build sandbags and get a passive vet 1 bonus) for better late performance. Any nerf will lock them out of the game.

I think the unit's fine and this thread is pointless.

Fair enough then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Elpern who said they needed buffs

They are fine as they are and don't require nerfs apart from removing the extra weapon slot after upgrading G43s as this is likely unintended and just an oversight.

I believe it was actually by design. Cause the old version of the upgrade took up 0 weapon slots.

From the log when they first changed fusiliers and gave them the upgrade paths:
Upgrade route 2 - Recon Package (G43s)

Recon package now increases squad size from 5 to 6.
Now takes up 1 weapon slot from 0.
Requires Mechanized or Battlegroup Headquarters to be deployed

Fair enough then, it seemed like you were agreeing with Elpern who said they needed buffs

Yeah, as others have mentioned they're trash in 1v1/early-game but imho giving them early game buffs would just have them walk over all comers and volks would sob in the corner.

I don't like the reduced faust range on volks....

They just need to lose the 6th man with the G43 upgrade and they'll be fine.

I've never really understood why people compare Panzerfusiliers to Penals of all things, when they wish to talk about PFs' strength. I'm really not sure what's supposed to be similar about the two units.

Penals are an expensive "semi-elite" shock unit, intended to overpower axis infantry early, but don't scale terribly well into the lategame (Though they're not as helpless as people state). PFs on the other hand are a "more expensive than usual" line infantry, that starts out very weak in combat terms, but is able to scale fantastically into the late game (When substantially invested into with Munitions, and once they reach veterancy 2+).

Penals aren't a fantastically designed unit, and still need quite a lot of work, but the specific comparison between them and PFs has always struck me as rather odd. What is the reasoning behind it?

In any case, I don't think Fusiliers are particularly overpowered, even with their sixth man upgrade. You sacrifice a fair amount in the early game (Though you do have a vital snare you otherwise lack) and a large investment of munitions to attain a very solid line infantry unit lategame. Is their shrecked performance noticeably better than Panzergrenadiers', incidentally?