[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Medics was a much needed change to put it part way near half as effective as all other factions healing, the moli/ at combo is not a better price, it's a nerf to the AT nade price by shackeling it to what is possibly the worst ability in the game. Faster t3 is coming in the heels of a massive tone down of the T70, THE crutch unit, the only thing that gets soviet through the mid game...

Medics aside these are not buffs, these are adjustments. At this point working in a MP reduction to some techs would ALSO not be buffs, but adjustments because as it stands with the nerfs to the T70 soviet might not be making it through the mid game. Having units to support penals wouldn't break the game when you consider the loss of T70 power spike. Hell, combined with the increased price on the AT nade, it would probably have t3 hitting at the same time as now

There all buffs in tech and no more buffs are needed.

Soviet is the faction with most to gain from change to medic healing speed while it also available cheaper making conscript spam more effective.

ATgre/Mol combination is reduction of total Soviet tech cost, regardless.

Earlier T3 is a buff.

Total soviet cost has already been reduced and these is little to justify further reduction, that was my point I am sticking with it.

Total soviet cost has already been reduced and these is little to justify further reduction, that was my point I am sticking with it.

soviet earlygame is far worse than ostheer earlygame... id say that alone justifies SOV tech costs to equal that of ostheers...

soviet earlygame is far worse than ostheer earlygame...

Not really

id say that alone justifies SOV tech costs to equal that of ostheers...

Again not really. Ostheer have a linear teaching with Battle Phase and that has nothing to do with soviet tech system.

Total soviet cost has already been reduced and these is little to justify further reduction, that was my point I am sticking with it.

It hasn't been reduced so far. You now have to pay more to get AT nades, 25 MP and 5 fuel specifically, while medics got 50 MP cheaper. Overeall T4 timing is thus delayed by 5 fuel, but T-70 is 5 fuel faster, while you also save one model worth of MP. Not the most impactful changes in terms of timings. The "free" molly is nice of course, but that doesn't make the teching cheaper, only more efficient.

I personally believe that the forced but cheap molly is in the end a good change that might compensate for the three veterancy nerfs on cons, as the throw speed vet will finally have some impact.

Not really

yes really... i havent seen a single person who thinks SOV earlygame is good aside from you...

Again not really. Ostheer have a linear teaching with Battle Phase and that has nothing to do with soviet tech system.

soviet teching is still more expensive than ostheer teching...

It hasn't been reduced so far. You now have to pay more to get AT nades, 25 MP and 5 fuel specifically, while medics got 50 MP cheaper. Overeall T4 timing is thus delayed by 5 fuel, but T-70 is 5 fuel faster, while you also save one model worth of MP. Not the most impactful changes in terms of timings. The "free" molly is nice of course, but that doesn't make the teching cheaper, only more efficient.

I personally believe that the forced but cheap molly is in the end a good change that might compensate for the three veterancy nerfs on cons, as the throw speed vet will finally have some impact.

Total Soviet total cost is reduced. Medic are cheaper and unlocking both AT grenades and molov is cheaper.

Soviet get more and better thing and pay less.

A Soviet player going T1/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing faster built T1, faster build T3 and tech bonuses for Penal

A soviet player going conscripts T2/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing, less cost for AT snare/combo faster T3.

Total Soviet total cost is reduced. Medic are cheaper and unlocking both AT grenades and molov is cheaper.

Soviet get more and better thing and pay less.

excuse me but this is nonsense...

T2 + T3 + T4 costs more than T1 + BP1 + T2 + BP2 + T3

and thats not counting mobilized reserves (if u plan to skip T-70) and AT/molly... if you do then soviet tech costs will exceed even ost T4...

A Soviet player going T1/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing faster built T1, faster build T3 and tech bonuses for Penal

A soviet player going conscripts T2/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing, less cost for AT snare/combo faster T3.

while still having ridiculous tech costs...

Total Soviet total cost is reduced. Medic are cheaper and unlocking both AT grenades and molov is cheaper.

Molotov upgrade was basically never used in serious games. I've never seen it used even when playing modes where I have low ranks. Including that in the original sum is not based on reality.

Soviet get more and better thing and pay less.

No, they pay more/same (depending on how you value fuel and timings vs 25 MP) but get more from HQ upgrades. 5 fuel timing change on T-70 is offset by its performance nerfs, conscripts pay for their cheaper molly upgrade with more expensive tripe wire flares and 10 % accuracy. it's not a net gain, just redistribution.

A Soviet player going T1/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing faster built T1, faster build T3 and tech bonuses for Penal

Sure, but that's a build that everybody considers not viable in competitive envoronments.

A soviet player going conscripts T2/T3/T4 will have cheaper and better healing, less cost for AT snare/combo faster T3.

No, AT is more expensive, T3 is faster (but nerfed), T4 is overall slower compared to live. But you get a "free" molly that you might not need/want.

Molotov upgrade was basically never used in serious games. I've never seen it used even when playing modes where I have low ranks. Including that in the original sum is not based on reality.

That is why I talked about total cost.

No, they pay more/same (depending on how you value fuel and timings vs 25 MP) but get more from HQ upgrades. 5 fuel timing change on T-70 is offset by its performance nerfs, conscripts pay for their cheaper molly upgrade with more expensive tripe wire flares and 10 % accuracy. it's not a net gain, just redistribution.

You are a talking about unit performance not tech

Sure, but that's a build that everybody considers not viable in competitive envoronments.

The fact that osttruppen and 5 men grenadier have been hit the nerf hammer already make Soviet competitive.

No, AT is more expensive, T3 is faster (but nerfed), T4 is overall slower compared to live. But you get a "free" molly that you might not need/want.

There is not point in telling me things I have already pointed out the mod team.

Total cost remain lower while benefiting from superior healing and earlier T3.

The what I have said and will say it again is there is little to justify even lower tech cost for soviet, unless you come up with argument why in your opinion Soviet should pay even less for tech I suggest you move on.

That is why I talked about total cost.

And comparing total cost on live vs total cost on test makes no sense, as the former doesn't realistically include molly at all. It's two different tech trees. Molly costs munition, it's too slow at vet 0/1 and even if you get it, you might not ever use it because you already spend everything else on upgrades/mines/commander abilities/snares.

You are a talking about unit performance not tech

Of course I am, you can't decouple cost from performance. Even you never fail to mention that medics now perform better. Timing is not important because you wan't to hit better numbers in some scoreboards, it's important because it provides power spikes during specific windows. If such spike is lower, you might want to reduce the price.

The fact that osttruppen and 5 men grenadier have been hit the nerf hammer already make Soviet competitive.

Sure, I've expressed the same opinion in that hijacked meta prediction thread, and what does that have to do with T1 builds? Those are notoriously bad against OST in general, regardless of their other disadvantages.

Total cost remain lower while benefiting from superior healing and earlier T3.

Again, total cost is only lower if you count molly on live that nobody ever uses. That's pointless comparison. Sure, you can now say you can get it all now for sligthly better price, but that's not the same as saying that teching is now getting cheaper. If you want the same stuff on test, you have to pay a bit more fuel and slightly less manpower than on live. T3 timing is better, T4 timing is worse. You now get a molly that you might not want. If you throw in performance, which you both seem to want to do and not at the same time, you can say that medics got better, but also most core units got nerfed, soem off-meta untis got slightly buffed, but that's impossible to quantify and you'd also need to consider matchups (OST nerfed, OKW buffed).

See how complicated that actually is?

The what I have said and will say it again is there is little to justify even lower tech cost for soviet, unless you come up with argument why in your opinion Soviet should pay even less for tech I suggest you move on.

I've never said anywhere SOV shoud pay less for tech. I'm just showing the full picture around your misleading claims.

There all buffs in tech and no more buffs are needed.

Soviet is the faction with most to gain from change to medic healing speed while it also available cheaper making conscript spam more effective.

ATgre/Mol combination is reduction of total Soviet tech cost, regardless.

Earlier T3 is a buff.

Total soviet cost has already been reduced and these is little to justify further reduction, that was my point I am sticking with it.

The medics will certainly be nice, especially how they won't get caught up on a single model and not heal anything at all unless you micro your units at base, no argument there. But you still have to retreat to have heals, which desires a slight increase in effectiveness. The only change medics in my memory have ever received was they lost a medic, and that was back when the game was slower.

Moli/at nade isn't a reduction in cost if you never it the molitov, which Noone did because they are garbage. At any rate I would GLADLY trade the combination in favor of knocking some manpower off t1/t2 if the other is built so that penals can be less oppressive as they would have support.

Earlier t3 is technically a buff but worse T70 is a significant nerf. You sre arguing paper costs I'm arguing impact.

If soviet teching is already being reduced then it's in scope and there is no reason not to be discussing alternatives that might have better synergy with the faction.

The what I have said and will say it again is there is little to justify even lower tech cost for soviet, unless you come up with argument why in your opinion Soviet should pay even less for tech I suggest you move on.

SOV pays more for tech than ost does... stop being delusional...

Show Spoiler

I've never said anywhere SOV shoud pay less for tech. I'm just showing the full picture around your misleading claims.

And my response was to someone who actually suggested lower Soviet tech.

If you do not think that Soviet need cheaper tech than you actually agree my original point so I suggest you move on.

The medics will certainly be nice, especially how they won't get caught up on a single model and not heal anything at all unless you micro your units at base, no argument there. But you still have to retreat to have heals, which desires a slight increase in effectiveness. The only change medics in my memory have ever received was they lost a medic, and that was back when the game was slower.

Moli/at nade isn't a reduction in cost if you never it the molitov, which Noone did because they are garbage. At any rate I would GLADLY trade the combination in favor of knocking some manpower off t1/t2 if the other is built so that penals can be less oppressive as they would have support.

Earlier t3 is technically a buff but worse T70 is a significant nerf. You sre arguing paper costs I'm arguing impact.

If soviet teching is already being reduced then it's in scope and there is no reason not to be discussing alternatives that might have better synergy with the faction.

And my point remain Soviet do not need further tech discounts.

You have started projecting your own flaws on to other.

SOV teching costs without side techs

15+75+100 = 190

OST teching costs without T2

50+105+40 = 195

SOV teching cost to T4 + sidetech and mobilize reserves (cuz LV skip)
15+15+75+20+100 = 225

OST teching cost to T3
50+105+20 = 175

OST teching cost to T4
50+20+105+40 = 205

SOV teching cost with T-70 + molly/AT
15+15+75+70+100 = 275

OST teching cost to T4 with 222/flametruck
50+20+30+105+40 = 245

SOV teching cost to first T-34
15+75+100+90+15 = 295(305 with mobilize reserves since LV skip)

OST teching cost to first P4
50+20+105+120 = 295


and thats just fuel... dont get me started on manpower...

And my response was to someone who actually suggested lower Soviet tech.

If you do not think that Soviet need cheaper tech than you actually agree my original point so I suggest you move on.

You reacted to my post. And I was not reacting to your suggestions, I was reacting to your misleading claims.

You reacted to my post.

You started by quoting me and not the other way around

Show Spoiler

And I was not reacting to your suggestions, I was reacting to your misleading claims.

this is my original post:

Soviet Tech does not need further discount.

T1 already give access to sacthels/AT sacthels/PTRS with no additional cost.


Soviet tech does not really need more discounts.

In addition that would make commander that provide doctrinal support weapons less attractive.

The problem lies in the design not the balance.

Once more if in your opinion Soviet need further tech reduction argue your case else I suggest you move on.

Total soviet cost has already been reduced and these is little to justify further reduction, that was my point I am sticking with it.

This is the original claim I quoted and which I believe is misleading.

This is the original claim I quoted and which I believe is misleading.

Soviet tech is stronger in preview than it is live:
HQ/Bunker Medics
Show Spoiler
buff

Special Rifle Command

Show Spoiler
buff

Medics
Show Spoiler
Buff


Mobilize Reserves
Show Spoiler
buff


Grenade Package

Show Spoiler
neutral

Tankiovy Battalion

Show Spoiler
buff


Mechanized Armor Kampenya

Show Spoiler
neutral

There are no nerf to Soviet tech only buffs and even you want count bundling AT grenade as nerf it outweighed by the buffs.

Now can you pls move on.