The maxim thread

id say oorah + molotov is a bit more relevant at disloging the mg42 than engie flamers but i digress...


nah not the first HQ... i meant the first truck which means indirect is unlocked at the same time u get incendiary nades....


im proposing T-70 nerfs though... also the M5AA is strong but the OST flametruck is a bit more punishing than the m5 imo...

plus larger squad sizes isnt automatically an advantage... conscripts for example have much higher target size and lower DPS than grens... they will lose to grens at high medium to long range engagements... cons only beat them at short-low medium range engagements hence conscripts and grens are considered balanced

Ok, so you just proved my point. Conscript oorah+molotov is an effective anti-MG tool (heavy emphasis on the oorah and less emphasis on the molotov). If only Volks could sprint...

Giving OKW indirect fire that early would swing OKW into OP areas, because you have to consider that UKF and USF will be affected by such a change as well. Also, I don't think you want to have indirect fire that fast. When combined with OKW's punishing infantry (when played correctly), indirect fire that early will completely rid the Allies of pretty much any field presence.

M5 AA halftrack can 1v1 the 222, shoot down planes, and suppress. It is also faster and more responsive the than the flamer 251.

Yes, larger squad sizes IS automatically an advantage. More resistant to indirect fire, more resistant to (OKW) mines, and most importantly, able to easily steal and recrew team weapons. Why is Ostheer unable to recrew with 2 models and forced to recrew with 3/4 of their squads? Because their team weapons are extremely powerful, and it would be unfair to allow Ostheer infantry to keep decrewed team weapons on the field for that long. Not to mention that the Ostheer sniper is basically useless against Soviet infantry. Also, keep in mind that Conscript reinforcement cost is dirt cheap compared to Grenadiers, which have the highest reinforcement cost of all mainline infantry.

Buff Maxim, increase T2 build time by 10 seconds and Maxim build time by 15 seconds. There, everyone happy. Soviets get a real MG, OKW outnumbers Maxim spammers easily.

Ok, so you just proved my point. Conscript oorah+molotov is an effective anti-MG tool (heavy emphasis on the oorah and less emphasis on the molotov). If only Volks could sprint...

hence the point being the problem may be an OKW thing as opposed to a ostheer soviet ukf or usf problem...

Giving OKW indirect fire that early would swing OKW into OP areas, because you have to consider that UKF and USF will be affected by such a change as well. Also, I don't think you want to have indirect fire that fast. When combined with OKW's punishing infantry (when played correctly), indirect fire that early will completely rid the Allies of pretty much any field presence.

i doubt it... mortars dont really help against anything except machineguns ever since the great mortar nerf... even then OKW is considered to be an underpowered faction... this change (along with a tech rework) may help OKW find its footing... but thats just my opinion

M5 AA halftrack can 1v1 the 222, shoot down planes, and suppress. It is also faster and more responsive the than the flamer 251.

the flamer 251 is slower but is capable of disloging almost any defensive position ost can muster... there is a reason why flamer 251 is meta while the M5 AA truck isnt that meta...

Yes, larger squad sizes IS automatically an advantage. More resistant to indirect fire, more resistant to (OKW) mines, and most importantly, able to easily steal and recrew team weapons. Why is Ostheer unable to recrew with 2 models and forced to recrew with 3/4 of their squads? Because their team weapons are extremely powerful, and it would be unfair to allow Ostheer infantry to keep decrewed team weapons on the field for that long. Not to mention that the Ostheer sniper is basically useless against Soviet infantry. Also, keep in mind that Conscript reinforcement cost is dirt cheap compared to Grenadiers, which have the highest reinforcement cost of all mainline infantry.

of the points you have made only 2 points really apply here... the first is mines because they damage 2 models max and the second is recrewing which requires 3 models... however but indirect fire damages units in an aoe soo larger squad sizes just means more damaged models... snipers dont really count when the OST sniper has higher rate of fire to balance out the squad sizes... and overall reinforcement costs per squad is even between grenadiers and conscripts...

snip

This is going to be my last reply since we've gone back and forth like two pages already and I don't want to spam the forum.

Mortars are actually quite good at dealing with non-support weapons. In any kind of infantry engagement, cover is important. Mortars are great at forcing infantry to move out of cover. I'll be honest, I don't know how much experience in the game you have, but I have learned to not underestimate the mortar.

Yes, flamer 251 is very good at dislodging defensive positions. That is if the defensive position does not have a ZiS gun. The reason 251 is meta is because you can rush it. The reason M5 AA is not meta is because there's not much reason to get it when you can get a T70.

As for the larger squad sizes - of course indirect fire is AoE. But because larger squad sizes means they are often more spread out (along with the extra men), indirect fire generally isn't as strong against large squad sizes. If you were to tell me that Conscripts were not more resistant to rocket artillery than Volks or Grens, then I'd have to say either you've never played Axis or you're just lying. As for the sniper, yes, the Ostheer sniper fires faster, but now you're ignoring the actual point, which is that it still takes longer for the Ostheer sniper to take out a Conscript squad than it does for a Soviet sniper to take out a Grenadier squad. Furthermore, the Ostheer sniper is much more exposed because he has to take more shots. Finally, yes, 6 man squads mean you have to spend pretty much the same manpower (sometimes more) on reinforcing, but keep in mind - 6 man squads can hold the line much longer for you to bring other squads and team weapons into the fray. 6 man squads are also harder to wipe (especially on retreat). This is something you can't deny. And before you give me the stats on Conscript target size and stuff, remember that the game isn't just about numbers. You have to apply those numbers in context. A 6 man squad will always be harder to wipe on retreat than a 4 man squad, because there's more targets (since the retreating squad sprints faster than pursuing squads can keep up, there's a higher chance of more models escaping), and the modifiers that the retreat status gives when combined with the larger squad size evens out the disparity in target size/received accuracy.

This is going to be my last reply since we've gone back and forth like two pages already and I don't want to spam the forum.

Mortars are actually quite good at dealing with non-support weapons. In any kind of infantry engagement, cover is important. Mortars are great at forcing infantry to move out of cover. I'll be honest, I don't know how much experience in the game you have, but I have learned to not underestimate the mortar.

ehh im personally not too fond of mortars... personally i only use mortars for smoking out team weapons instead preferring the grenade as my main method of working out cover to cover fights... at least... ever since the great mortar nerf...

Yes, flamer 251 is very good at dislodging defensive positions. That is if the defensive position does not have a ZiS gun. The reason 251 is meta is because you can rush it. The reason M5 AA is not meta is because there's not much reason to get it when you can get a T70.

perhaps... but that remains to be seen... imo the Flametruck is still kinda better than the M5 especially due to the massive shock value the unit has in contrast to the more support oriented M5...

As for the larger squad sizes - of course indirect fire is AoE. But because larger squad sizes means they are often more spread out (along with the extra men), indirect fire generally isn't as strong against large squad sizes. If you were to tell me that Conscripts were not more resistant to rocket artillery than Volks or Grens, then I'd have to say either you've never played Axis or you're just lying. As for the sniper, yes, the Ostheer sniper fires faster, but now you're ignoring the actual point, which is that it still takes longer for the Ostheer sniper to take out a Conscript squad than it does for a Soviet sniper to take out a Grenadier squad. Furthermore, the Ostheer sniper is much more exposed because he has to take more shots. Finally, yes, 6 man squads mean you have to spend pretty much the same manpower (sometimes more) on reinforcing, but keep in mind - 6 man squads can hold the line much longer for you to bring other squads and team weapons into the fray. 6 man squads are also harder to wipe (especially on retreat). This is something you can't deny.

vs rocket artillery yeah id rather have a conscript... but vs mortars leigs pak howis and other non howitzer tube artillery id honestly rather have the grenadier... the model are dispersed enough that the tube arty only hits 1 model at best instead of damaging 2-3 models of the conscript... rocket arty on the other hand along with howitzers have a large enough aoe to damage multiple models for both grens and cons alike...

yes the ostheer sniper takes more time to kill conscripts and also suffers from having to pop up more... but it also cloaks faster and has a scary vet 1 ability which can be used for countersniping... it also has lower aimtime afaik making it easier to countersnipe...

as for 6 man squads vs 4 man squads holding the line im not entirely sure here... conscripts with 1.09 target size will die first to small arms fire when compared to a unit with 0.7 target size all else being equal...

Uhh, Grenadiers don't have 0.7 target size at vet one, which is the veterancy that Conscripts have 1.09 target size.

Unless you're trying to compare vet 0 cons to vetted Grenadiers for some reason?

6 man weapon teams , yes that's correct you wern't immagining it 6 MAN WEAPON TEAMS . 6 Yes 6 man weapon teams . You are lucky to get any suppression or ark at all with 6 MAN WEAPON TEAMS. Did I mention maxim was a 6 man weapon team?

6 man weapon teams , yes that's correct you wern't immagining it 6 MAN WEAPON TEAMS . 6 Yes 6 man weapon teams . You are lucky to get any suppression or ark at all with 6 MAN WEAPON TEAMS. Did I mention maxim was a 6 man weapon team?

deathloop , yes that's correct you wern't immagining it DEATHLOOP . DEATHLOOP Yes DEATHLOOP . You are lucky to get any suppression or ark at all with DEATHLOOP. Did I mention maxim has DEATHLOOP?


also you have a long history of being biased soo your opinion is trash just like achpawel`s

Be ready to have the axis mortars grenades and off maps etc nerfed if that happens. These have mostly been designed with 6 men squads as targets. These would be op if soviet team weapons go to 4 men.

Eh I'm not too sure about that. The USF mortar is basically a copy pasta of the Ost mortar and isn't insanely op against ost and okw 4 man support weapons. The ost mortar also isn't op against the USF and UKF 4 man support weapons.

If the cost of having decent support weapons is 4 man than I'm all for it. Clearly the 6 man support weapons teams aren't all that great considering that SOV have the worst base mortar and the worst base mg even with 6 man.

Ost rifle nade is cancer incarnate with either 4 or 6 man support weapons.

Eh I'm not too sure about that. The USF mortar is basically a copy pasta of the Ost mortar and isn't insanely op against ost and okw 4 man support weapons. The ost mortar also isn't op against the USF and UKF 4 man support weapons.

If the cost of having decent support weapons is 4 man than I'm all for it. Clearly the 6 man support weapons teams aren't all that great considering that SOV have the worst base mortar and the worst base mg even with 6 man.

Ost rifle nade is cancer incarnate with either 4 or 6 man support weapons.

OST rifle grenade is unlikely to be effective vs six man crews unless they're all insanely bunched in yellow cover, though, and this is sort of the fault of the team weapon user.

The real issue is that the Maxim and DShK have severe deathloop issues. It's not exactly fair to give them fourman crews while they deathloop as they do, and (apparently?) it's "unfixable". Sixman MG34/42, Vickers, and 50 cals are incredibly good, especially if you are a mental patient who crews them with shocks.

All sixman crews (Even the maxim and DShK) are indeed less vulnerable to explosive attack than fourman crews, also. This is often glossed over.

OST rifle grenade is unlikely to be effective vs six man crews unless they're all insanely bunched in yellow cover, though, and this is sort of the fault of the team weapon user.

The real issue is that the Maxim and DShK have severe deathloop issues. It's not exactly fair to give them fourman crews while they deathloop as they do, and (apparently?) it's "unfixable". Sixman MG34/42, Vickers, and 50 cals are incredibly good, especially if you are a mental patient who crews them with shocks.

All sixman crews (Even the maxim and DShK) are indeed less vulnerable to explosive attack than fourman crews, also. This is often glossed over.

yeah... id honestly take a 4 man maxim if it didnt have deathloop and had good stats... the problem is deathloop as far as im aware cannot be solved... thats why i prefer to treat deathlooping HMGs as -1 man to its current squad size and just accept that deathloop cannot be solved... soo in reality the maxim is a 5 man MG more than anything else atm...

yeah... id honestly take a 4 man maxim if it didnt have deathloop and had good stats... the problem is deathloop as far as im aware cannot be solved... thats why i prefer to treat deathlooping HMGs as -1 man to its current squad size and just accept that deathloop cannot be solved... soo in reality the maxim is a 5 man MG more than anything else atm...

I appreciate that you aren't over-emphasising the effect of the deathloop, as many often do. Its a severe issue, but there's a degree of people overstating how much of an effect deathlooping has on every engagement. It's a severe issue, but not every single fight against a maxim/DShK ends with it being endlessly deathlooped... though a lot of them do.

Im surprised it isn't possible to provide a workaround to this. Is it not possible to either: Make the gunner less likely to be targeted than other models, transfer damage from the gunner to other models in the squad instead of himself, or in the worst case, just force models to teleport into the gunner's seat if the gunner is killed? I expect the latter may be against Lelic's "no jank" policy.

I guess i'm not exactly privy to precisely what modders can do, perhaps all these options are simply impossible/unfeasible.

Im surprised it isn't possible to provide a workaround to this. Is it not possible to either: Make the gunner less likely to be targeted than other models, transfer damage from the gunner to other models in the squad instead of himself, or in the worst case, just force models to teleport into the gunner's seat if the gunner is killed? I expect the latter may be against Lelic's "no jank" policy.

I guess i'm not exactly privy to precisely what modders can do, perhaps all these options are simply impossible/unfeasible.

i think its because we cannot import custom models and animations into COH2... unlike COH1 COH2 is alot more restrictive when it comes to modding... this of course bites the game in the butt...

i think its because we cannot import custom models and animations into COH2... unlike COH1 COH2 is alot more restrictive when it comes to modding... this of course bites the game in the butt...

I'm aware of that, though the three solutions I suggest don't need any new animations. I expect there's some other issue that prevents a fix.

Im surprised it isn't possible to provide a workaround to this. Is it not possible to either: Make the gunner less likely to be targeted than other models, transfer damage from the gunner to other models in the squad instead of himself, or in the worst case, just force models to teleport into the gunner's seat if the gunner is killed? I expect the latter may be against Lelic's "no jank" policy.

I guess i'm not exactly privy to precisely what modders can do, perhaps all these options are simply impossible/unfeasible.

It's been 7 years and even when Relic devs were in charge, it couldn't be fixed.

On teleport: it can't be done. The maxims is like a pak in this case. Once the model carrying the weapon dies, the movement stops and one model has to go pick it up.

On priority: weapon crew already have differentiate priority from the gunner. The problem is targeting and formation. If your only viable option to shoot at is the gunner (if you come from max range or if it's the first thing you are able to see) then it doesn't matter all the changes you had already applied.

On transferring dmg: we WC3 now bois. I'm thinking hard right now, but i don't think we have the tools to do that.


The best it can be done is to put 2 models in front of the Maxim gunner.

It's been 7 years and even when Relic devs were in charge, it couldn't be fixed.

On teleport: it can't be done. The maxims is like a pak in this case. Once the model carrying the weapon dies, the movement stops and one model has to go pick it up.

On priority: weapon crew already have differentiate priority from the gunner. The problem is targeting and formation. If your only viable option to shoot at is the gunner (if you come from max range or if it's the first thing you are able to see) then it doesn't matter all the changes you had already applied.

On transferring dmg: we WC3 now bois. I'm thinking hard right now, but i don't think we have the tools to do that.


The best it can be done is to put 2 models in front of the Maxim gunner.

Unfortunate. I know you can't get "new" animations into the game, but I was hoping you might have the ability to skip existing ones.

Its not possible to then, say, force a unit attempting to shoot at the gunner to instead fire at a crewman, even if they're out of range? Or, and this will sound very silly, have the gunner siphon HP from other crewmen when he's damaged? Sorry if these "solutions" sound a little ludicrous, I'm really not sure what's possible for the modding team.

Failing all that, two models being in front of the gunner i suppose would be the only solution? It's not exactly ideal, but anything is better than what's currently the case.

well to me, the maxim is lackluster. My main issue with it is
the damned deathloop, i don't think all other things are fine but i hate it's death loop more than anything else tbh. would i like more suppression, well yeah, enough times i see volks charge from beymond max range straight on and only gets suppressed once they are in point blank but still it's is what it is. It's the worst but not shit.

I feel as though the Maxim's suppression is a little understated. It does generally suppress in approximately one burst, assuming a generic squad with no "anti-suppression" factors in play. Not as quickly as the MG42, of course, but it's hardly as night and day as people seem to make out.

I don't think making it out to be weaker than it is in the suppression department is really all that useful. Its primary issue is the deathloop, which exacerbates suppression problems.

According to Stein Grenadier's information https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=0 it also has a better suppression "Radius" and "Radius percent" than other HMGs... Though I'm not precisely sure what these numbers translate to. I assume suppression for squads surrounding the one thats being fired upon.

I feel as though the Maxim's suppression is a little understated. It does generally suppress in approximately one burst, assuming a generic squad with no "anti-suppression" factors in play. Not as quickly as the MG42, of course, but it's hardly as night and day as people seem to make out.

I don't think making it out to be weaker than it is in the suppression department is really all that useful. Its primary issue is the deathloop, which exacerbates suppression problems.

According to Stein Grenadier's information https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=0 it also has a better suppression "Radius" and "Radius percent" than other HMGs... Though I'm not precisely sure what these numbers translate to. I assume suppression for squads surrounding the one thats being fired upon.

yeah but a maxim`s suppression is soo bad that when approaching at a mildly at an oblique angle a volk can walk up to it and nade it...

no other mg suffers from such a horrible fate... in fact the maxim is the only MG that cannot stop 2 volksgrenadiers... literally every other MG ingame can do so...

It got glossed over so I'd like to resubmit for discussion the idea of longer range for the maxim. This puts it further away from the fight meaning further from harm and outside a flank less Likley to get deathlooped. It also gives it more time to suppress enemies assuming it's spotted for. Dial down the arc so it's not OP as hell of course. Kinda keeps it unique and also let's it be an "assault mg" by allowing it to be o fire on enemies without taking fire itself