Zis Barrage need longer cooldown

And the barrage is free and unlimited thereafter right?

After you upgraded the Barrage for 75MU, yes, free and unlimited. But with longer cooldown than now.

ZiS Barrage has 15 to 80 range. Confirmed!
https://coh2.serealia.ca/#122
Can easily wipe an entire mortar team in 1 or 2 volleys.

ZiS Barrage has 15 to 80 range. Confirmed!
https://coh2.serealia.ca/#122
Can easily wipe an entire mortar team in 1 or 2 volleys.

Old sight that is out of date. The Zis barrage has 60 range.

Old sight that is out of date. The Zis barrage has 60 range.

The site is updated. The range of the weapon is 80.

The range of the ability is 60 for zis and 80 for SU-76. They both increase with veterancy.

ZiS Barrage has 15 to 80 range. Confirmed!
https://coh2.serealia.ca/#122
Can easily wipe an entire mortar team in 1 or 2 volleys.

The frustation of zis barrage, it will shoot 2 volleys before your weapon teams can finish unpack and move.

This katitof obviously have not played against zis barrage.

You have to move your weapon team even before the zis starts firing, which means you need to have sight of it. Even then, it will still hit you once.

The reload times are too short! The round lands too fast!

The frustation of zis barrage, it will shoot 2 volleys before your weapon teams can finish unpack and move.

If you need 2 volleys before you react, barrage is not a problem.

This katitof obviously have not played against zis barrage.

Or Katitof has enough field awareness to not park HMGs in front of direct fire barrage weapons.
Katitof also likes to use mortars and other indirect weapons against people investing heavily in team weapons. Maybe you should learn from Katitof.

You have to move your weapon team even before the zis starts firing, which means you need to have sight of it. Even then, it will still hit you once.

The reload times are too short! The round lands too fast!

In line with any other barrage except soviet mortar ones.

I have found the ZiS to be obnoxious at times but its inaccuracy in the FoW means that moving weapon crews is a surprisingly good counter. Unless of course they roll huge RNG and direct hit in the first shot etc.

Then again I don't really play Ost and usually grab an LeIG and later LeFHs.....kinda amusing when the CB flattens a ZiS crew after a barrage as it IS acting as an artillery unit.

If you need 2 volleys before you react, barrage is not a problem.

Most of the time, you cant see when it starts barraging you. Specially in 1v1 or 2v2 when you dont have enough scout.

Most of the time, you cant see when it starts barraging you. Specially in 1v1 or 2v2 when you dont have enough scout.

yap obviously katitof never plays the game.

most of the time, you react when you see the first volley incoming. even then, before you unpack finish, the 2nd volley hits you.

zis = 2 hits before you are actually able to dodge.

The undervalued part of the barrage is the fact that it makes a player resetup their team weapons such as an at gun or mg thus allowing for tanks/infantry to close in without taking damage. If it is timed right, the ZIS's opponent has their key unit(s) rendered useless for a crucial couple of seconds. This will often create the advantage that will lead to a won tank/infantry/combined arms engagement - often the advancing units will mop up the resetup weapon or make it retreat. Unlike grenades the risk of "eating" the barrage is too high and you can't use such tactics with even full health team weapon. Having said all that I would move the barrage to vet 1 (to make the player invest some resources into inirect weapon such as a mortar - this would make them have fewer infantry squads on the field - or one fewer AT gun), or simply make the barrage be paid for every two shells to make "eating" it possible - in such case there should be current cooldown so that a ZiS player can pay more to fire the next two shells.

The undervalued part of the barrage is the fact that it makes a player resetup they team weapons such as an at gun or mg thus allowing for tanks/infantry to close in without taking damage. If it is timed right, the ZIS's opponent has their key units rendered useless for a crucial couple of seconds. This will often create the advantage that will lead to a won tank/infantry/combined arms engagement - often the advancing units will mop up the resetup weapon or make it retreat. Unlike grenades the risk of "eating" the barrage is too high and you can't use such tactics with even full health team weapon. Having said all that I would move the barrage to vet 1 (to make the player invest some resources into inirect weapon such as a mortar - this would make them have fewer infantry squads on the field - or one fewer AT gun), or simply make the barrage be paid for every two shells to make "eating" it possible - in such case there should be current cooldown so that a ZiS player can pay more to fire the next two shells.

True, but IF and only if, there are not supporting infantry/vehicles near. If an MG43/34 is sitting alone and minding it's own business, guarding a point, solo, then spending 30 (something like that) munitions for a barrage to retake is a good course of action and not a balance problem. If ZiS is barraging supported AT guns, MG42s or whatever, then conscripts or penals won't really be able to just charge in before they re-setup. At that point, grens, volks, maybe obers or some other elite infantry will be MORE than enough to buy time for the MG or Pak or whever to suppress advancing infantry/halt tanks.

3rd option. Your MG42s and Paks and whatever are supported by infantry and vehicles and the enemy decides to charge in, starts with barraging. At that point, unless the AT gun can both barrage and fire at tanks, it's a full scale assault. The winner is the person which can control their units better and perhaps flank or fake retreat or bait or something. Again not a balance problem. He's spending 30+ munitions (at least) to dislodge you. Barrage ain't free. You can use munitions for whatever you think would be best to stop the advance.

So in all 3 situations, as long as the AT gun can NOT fire both HE shells and AP at the same time, like some magician, and the barrage is not free of charge, then it's not a balance problem. Only thing you can balance is the cooldown on it, but I guess not by much, cause it's a dual role unit, not like the crew needs to sing a lullaby to the gun to cool it down so it can fire again.

post

Well, the whole point might be summed up to this - 2 shells for 30 munitions would be fine - a grenade pricetag. More shells for such price is too cheap. I'd give more shells to SU-76 but nor to ZiS. This would probably make SU-76 more viable. ZiS giving the possibility to skip investing into indirect fire and being decent AT at the same time is bad design.

less shells and cost means more availability so beware of that avenue.

also no soviet player is going to skip indirect if they need indirect, being able to press the zis into indirect is a nice bonus but its no substitute for the mortar which is cheaper, has no munitions cost, has a flare, can retreat, can provide constant damage.

side not i think its hilarious that the zis does a better job of punishing blobs than the maxim does...

Suggested changes:

Increase friendly fire modifier
Increase CD to much SU-76
Reduce damage to ambient buildings

Possibly make it a vet 1 ability replacing tracking.
Increase scaling with vet set up time or increasing shell or reducing cost.

Increase CD to much SU-76

Funny you mention that, given how its considered to LOWER its CD to match ZiS, because it now has muni cost and long CD is no longer needed as a balancing factor.

Funny you mention that, given how its considered to LOWER its CD to match ZiS, because it now has muni cost and long CD is no longer needed as a balancing factor.

Your theory that abilities that cost MU should not have CD as a balancing factor is simply flawed.

If you actually believe that I suggest you you start a thread about how all abilities with mu cost like grenade, snares, AP rounds, flares,... should have a CD of 15 sec and bellow.

Finally if you had any idea about the difference of the two units, you would have released that if the CD of SU-76 was lowered to much that of Zis gun, it would end to have its CD ready before even finishing firing.

That's... not my theory you unpeeled orange.
That's what is being considered for it and the reasoning.
And guess what princess?
It doesn't come from me.

Here, have a go and see what Miragefla considers doing with it:

Show Spoiler

And lets be honest, as full of yourself you are, its still more likely Miras suggestion will get in then yours silly one based on nothing else but another "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE sov unit OP" thread.

When you're making a weapon team move, CONGRATS, YOU HAVE COUNTERED IT, because it can no longer remain in place it did, zoning you out!
Stop camping next 30 minutes in the same place and MOVE OUT.

not really... i use zis barrage to counter blobs and to disloge weapon teams... i can easily do this without walking into the range of a mortar...

Ok, I give you that, but if you're shooting it at that range, contrary to mortar, you aren't going to hit shit.
And again, there ALWAYS is place to hide behind. You just don't have an excuse here.

honestly i think mortars are pretty terrible overall...their damage and effect on both squads and weapon systems is soo rare that i generally use mortars only for smoke.... only the LEIG and the pak howie seem like decent weapon systems...

in any case i do agree that the zis is not unbeatable... a stuka zu fuss will ruin its day and so will a panzerwerfer or even an LEIG.... but i also think the the mortar is not a good counter to a zis and i also think the zis may be a bit too strong for its current pricetag...

of course i also agree SOV is currently a terrible faction soo there has to be other changes to compensate for a zis change...

not really... i use zis barrage to counter blobs and to disloge weapon teams... i can easily do this without walking into the range of a mortar...

Well, that's the risk you're taking then, up to you.

honestly i think mortars are pretty terrible overall...their damage and effect on both squads and weapon systems is soo rare that i generally use mortars only for smoke.... only the LEIG and the pak howie seem like decent weapon systems...

in any case i do agree that the zis is not unbeatable... a stuka zu fuss will ruin its day and so will a panzerwerfer or even an LEIG.... but i also think the the mortar is not a good counter to a zis and i also think the zis may be a bit too strong for its current pricetag...

of course i also agree SOV is currently a terrible faction soo there has to be other changes to compensate for a zis change...

Let me remind you that we've re-established that ZiS got 60 range on barrage, going back to my original point, you ALWAYS outrange it. Always. No excuses.

Well, that's the risk you're taking then, up to you.

ehh im fine with that... mortar damage is fairly negligible unless its a pack howie an LEIG or a very lucky 120mm... ever since the great mortar nerf ive never been scared of the damage dealt by 80mm+ mortars...

Let me remind you that we've re-established that ZiS got 60 range on barrage, going back to my original point, you ALWAYS outrange it. Always. No excuses.

not really according to the cruzz chart...
Zis3
Range near
15
Range mid
47.5
Range far
80