Panther time to fire is slow need a vet buff

What a load of utter rubbish . No IT IS NOT A TANK DESTOYER. A tank destroyers role is to be at the back line taking long range shots at the enemy. That is it's primary purpose. Does the Panther do that? NO Does it have the range of a TD? NO, Does it at least have good vision? NO, so is flat out not a tank destroyer.

So, what do you call a stug, or a M10 ? Or Su 76? They all have 50 range, too ? What's with that "it have to have TD range" ?

So, what do you call a stug, or a M10 ? Or Su 76? They all have 50 range, too ? What's with that "it have to have TD range" ?

A simply factual correction, Su-76 has range 60.

So, what do you call a stug, or a M10 ? Or Su 76? They all have 50 range, too ? What's with that "it have to have TD range" ?

The Stug is an assault gun not a tank destroyer. The SU 76 as vipper just said has 60 range. The m10 is not one either in this game specifically, even though its named as one . It lacks range and sight so does not fit into the TD category.

The Stug is an assault gun not a tank destroyer. The SU 76 as vipper just said has 60 range. The m10 is not one either in this game specifically, even though its named as one . It lacks range and sight so does not fit into the TD category.

A) Pretty much all mediums/heavies have same sight, difference is in the range (50 or 55 o 60).
B) Panther is a TD. TDs in game are:
- M10 TD/Achilles
- Jackson
- Firefly
- JP4
- Panther
- Elefant/Jagdtiger
- Stug III "Initially intended as a mobile assault gun for direct-fire support for infantry, the StuG III was continually modified, and much like the later Jagdpanzer, was employed as a tank destroyer." wiki
- SU85
- SU76

You can argue about semantics all you want, but this is taken straight from the different websites that classify and give information about certain tanks. Just google it, for each one, like I have. Most of the time, tanks like Stug are called assault guns, while other sources call it tank destroyer. Assault gun is probably used because of the ammunition type it could sport.

And if you want to have "we're talking about a game, not real world". Then it still holds water.
As long as a tank in this game is good at killing other tanks, be it medium or heavy, it's a tank destroyer.
Achieving TD status you have to either:
A) Have agility to outmaneuver enemy tanks like M10 TDs and a gun to penetrate armour
B) Have a big a** gun with low AOE like the Firefly and Jackson
C) Have the agility AND the gun AND the armour to outlast and outright destroy tanks, like Panther
D) Be a chunky boy like Elefant/Jagdtiger
E) Range is optional

Of course, you can have a "in-between" class like tank hunters, but some sources use that term and other don't. E8 and Panther and SU76 would be tank hunters by that definition.

....

Of course, you can have a "in-between" class like tank hunters, but some sources use that term and other don't. E8 and Panther and SU76 would be tank hunters by that definition.

Tank hunter (Panzerjäger) was the term used by the German army
Tank destroy was term used by USF army

Tank hunter (Panzerjäger) was the term used by the German army
Tank destroy was term used by USF army

No s*** sherlock. Holy mother of God, you do have to be every pan's lid, don't you? Studied German for 12 years, all through primary and secondary and you really go and correct the jaeger part?

FYI, the tank hunter, as you obviously can't read, is for the game alone part in my post. So not taking the real world into account.

StuG was used as tankhunter since its developent, beause it was able to do so.

But yes, Panther is a crap tank.

The Stug is an assault gun not a tank destroyer. The SU 76 as vipper just said has 60 range. The m10 is not one either in this game specifically, even though its named as one . It lacks range and sight so does not fit into the TD category.

Now i have a feeling that you are messing up game and real life.

Anyway, talking of range, 50 range on panther, stug and m10 while being shorter than other TD, but still more than enough to out range other non TD vehicle, typically 40-45 and will actually fit into your philosophy of TD. Still, I dont know the reason behind that obsession with range of you but simply defined a TD by range only is nowhere near right.

No s*** sherlock. Holy mother of God, you do have to be every pan's lid, don't you? Studied German for 12 years, all through primary and secondary and you really go and correct the jaeger part?

Take chill pill and I can read just fine.

And Assault gun are infatry support vehicles according to German doctrine. This vehicles where used as tank hunters because other German weapon prove inefficient and thus the German doctrine adopted.

FYI, the tank hunter, as you obviously can't read, is for the game alone part in my post. So not taking the real world into account.

I am simply point out that in real life and military terminology there little to no difference between tank hunter and and tank destroyers and the term means the same thing.

Relic and the game makes no distinction either and both terms means the same thing.

If some people want to the terms is different way it is up to them.


I personally would put all vehicles with single purpose AT guns in category tank destroyers/tank hunter. And I would personally place unit like the M10 a "flanker" TD subcategory since its performance increase greatly with range.

Others might choose a different classification but the important thing is communicate and you seem to have issues in that department.

The Stug is an assault gun not a tank destroyer. The SU 76 as vipper just said has 60 range. The m10 is not one either in this game specifically, even though its named as one . It lacks range and sight so does not fit into the TD category.

Click on ISU-152: Heavy Assault gun needs order.
ISU-152 has 70 range. Is it a TD?

KV-2 seige mode has 70 range. Is it a TD?

didnt know su-76 had 60 range, perhaps its only 60 range for the barrage? nvm, not important.

Panther is a TD, a very quick and armoured one, but still a TD. Due to its gun is purely AT oriented, only AI capability is to use the mg's on the panther or run infantry over.

didnt know su-76 had 60 range, perhaps its only 60 range for the barrage? nvm, not important.

Panther is a TD, a very quick and armoured one, but still a TD. Due to its gun is purely AT oriented, only AI capability is to use the mg's on the panther or run infantry over.

barrage has even longer range:
80 at vet 0
89 at vet 3

Ok guys, ideas:

How do we nerf panther against meds and buff it against heavies?

Both axis factions have medium TDs, so they don't need panther to counter it all.

How about 40 more pen and +2sec to reload while nerfing its RoF vet to 20%?

This way it reliably counters heavies and isn't as potent against meds, leaving space for unused StuG and JP4.

Ok guys, ideas:

How do we nerf panther against meds and buff it against heavies?

Both axis factions have medium TDs, so they don't need panther to counter it all.

How about 40 more pen and +2sec to reload while nerfing its RoF vet to 20%?

This way it reliably counters heavies and isn't as potent against meds, leaving space for unused StuG and JP4.

It nice to see that you have adopted one of my long time suggestions but the suggested numbers seem rather off according to current TDs stats.

The idea that Panther should have 8.65 secs ROF on main gun, 160 damage Accuracy 0.06/0.045/0.035 and around 7.5 secs ROF when vetted is not even close to unit a like FF.

FF has ROF 8.25, 200 damage, Accuracy 0.06/0.05/0.04 (nearly x142% higher at Panther's max range and once vetted ROF 6.25 240 damage, Damage 240, Accuracy 0.078/0.065/0.052 and that is even without counting Tulips.

The superior penetration would simply not be enough and it would probably fair worse vs high armored targets than now with this suggestion.

Imagine buffing axis even more