XP values

A veternacy overhaul is very long overdue.
There many units that need to have their XP values adjusted:

Here are some numbers:
Rear Echelon Troops 320/640/1280
Combat Engineer Squad 340/680/1360
Pioneer Squad 400/800/1600

Commissar Squad 580/1060/2120
Artillery FIeld Officer Squad 580/1060/2120
Sturmoffizier squad 780/1460/2240/2910/3780


Pathfinders 340/680/1360
I&R Pathfinders 340/680/1360
Jaeger Light Recon Infantry 520/1040/2080/3120/3970


WC51 Military Truck 300/600/1200
M3 Scout Car 460/920/1840
Kubelwagen 530/1060/2120/2650/3525
Universal Carrier 720/1440/2160
Sdfkz 221 720/1440/2880/3850/4750

M5 Halftrack Quad 540/1080/2160
Sdkfz 251 flame Halftrack 540/1080/2160
Sdkfz 250 Halftrack 720/1440/2880
M15A1 AA Halftrack 870/1740/3480
Sdkfz 251/17 AA Halftrack 880/1760/3520/4750/5750

SU-76 870/1740/3480
Sdkfz 234 Puma 1160/2320/4640
AEC Mk.III 75mm Armored Car 1160/2320/4640
Sdkfz 234 Puma 1340/2680/5360/6700/8911

M10 Wolverine 1440/2880/5760
StuG III Ausf. G 1510/3020/6040
SU-85 1790/3580/7160
Jagdpanzer IV/70 2150/4300/8600/10750/14298

M4A3 Sherman 2020/4040/8080
M4A3 76mm 1820/3640/7280

Also Valentine has shared veterancy for no apparent reason.

Nothing's overdue, different units have different power levels and need different XP values.

Hard no

After analyzing the list, I do have to actually agree with Vipper.

Regular M3 sherman should have lower vet req.

All the other values are in line with base cost and combat potency of the unit.

Also Valentine has shared veterancy for no apparent reason.

Many command units do.

Kubelwagen however is not a command unit and it still has it, but you have forgotten to mention it for some reason. Same with 250.

After analyzing the list, I do have to actually agree with Vipper.

Regular M3 sherman should have lower vet req.

All the other values are in line with base cost and combat potency of the unit.

Many command units do.

Command Panther, Command Tiger, Command Panzer and Command UKF vehicle do not get shared veterancy. As I said there no apparent reason for Valentine to have shared veterancy.

Kubelwagen however is not a command unit and it still has it, but you have forgotten to mention it for some reason. Same with 250.

Actually you are the one that forgot to mention the long list of micro/lights vehicles that do gain shared veterancy like:
M3
WC51
...

M5
M3
...

Command Panther, Command Tiger Command Panzer and Command UKF vehicle do not.

Many =! All.
Reading comprehension 101.

Actually you are the one that forgot to mention the long list of micro light vehicles that do gain shared veterancy like:
M3
WC51
...

M5
M3
...

I have pointed out that there are more units with shared vet.
Never have I said these were the only missing ones.
Simply pointed out your nitpicking.

Glad you have seen the error of your ways and supplemented that quite vital information.

Mans =! All.

Once more you are incorrect:
Jaeger Command Squad does not get shared veterancy.

Now unless you want to argue that Valentine is a squad and not vehicles pls stop trolling.

I have pointed out that there are more units with shared vet.
Never have I said these were the only missing ones.
Simply pointed out your nitpicking.

Glad you have seen the error of your ways and supplemented that quite vital information.

Let me try to explain this to you since you seem to have trouble. The valentine is tank not light vehicle and just because kubel and 250 get shared veterancy that in no way do it mean that Valentine should also get shared veterancy.

Unless you want to argue that Valentine is the same class with kubel pls stop trolling.

Actually the only nitpicking is you and in nonconstructive way.

Once more you are incorrect:
Jaeger Command Squad does not get shared veterancy.

Now unless you want to argue that Valentine is a squad and not vehicles pls stop trolling.

Man, you so dense, they could slap you on KT front for impenetrable armor.

Let me spell it out for you directly with large letters:
MANY DOES NOT MEAN ALL, THAT MEANS NOT EVERYTHING, NOT EACH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE

Let me try to explain this to you since you seem to have trouble. The valentine is tank not light vehicle and just because kubel and 250 get shared veterancy that in no way do it mean that Valentine should also get shared veterancy.

Unless you want to argue that Valentine is the same class with kubel pls stop trolling.

Actually the only nitpicking is you and in nonconstructive way.

It does not mean if its a light tank or queen of england.
Some units have shared vet, some don't.
MANY but NOT ALL command units have it, usually infantry and below medium vehicles.
SOME but NOT ALL non command units have it, usually scouts and supports.

It is not a hard concept, I have no idea why are you struggling so much with it.

While I am all for standardizing or adjusting certain veterancy requirements, there are a lot of comparisons in the OP's list that don't really belong there or that don't need to get changed. Sturm Offizier, JLI, M10 vs Jagdpanzer (the latter costs almost twice as much), etc.

It would be nice to refine and compile a proper list though, so there's something to keep in mind in case we ever get to do another patch. I'll post a more detailed comment later.

While I am all for standardizing or adjusting certain veterancy requirements, there are a lot of comparisons in the OP's list that don't really belong there or that don't need to get changed. Sturm Offizier, JLI, M10 vs Jagdpanzer (the latter costs almost twice as much), etc.

It would be nice to refine the list though, so there's something to keep in mind in case we ever get to do another patch. I'll post a more detailed comment later.

The list is indicator but I have to point out why these units are on the list. from the ones you mentioned:

Commisar simply has to low XP value compared to Strum officer

Pathfinders simply have to XP value, its lower even than pioneers.

Su-85 has to low value compared to JP.

Stug III has to high compared to M10.

It would be nice to refine the list though, so there's something to keep in mind in case we ever get to do another patch. I'll post a more detailed comment later.

I can set up a list pointing out what imo it low or high.

I agree with @Sander.

A xp value/vet is overdue, but at this point only if it improves the game and doesn't require many post adjustments done. What i mean by this, is that just like with reinforce cost, the xp value should be proportional to the cost of the unit but take into account exceptions like for units with low damage output vs unit cost and those who benefit from shared vet.


If anyone is gonna make a list of unit xp value, put besides them the unit cost and if they get shared vet or not.

Ex: i'll use the engineers as an example. (Values might be wrong if the extractor is not working correctly and someone tell me where is the squad cost value (i can only found the model value in EBPS))

RET: 50mp 200mp squad 320xp
CE: 42.5mp 170mp 340xp
Pio: 50mp 200mp 400xp
RE: 52.5mp 210mp 400xp
SP: 75mp 300mp 480xp

As reference, Gres: 60mp 240mp 480xp

As you can see, in most cases reinforce cost is equivalent to cost of unit divided by model count and divided by 2.
This put the overall xp value to 1mp = 2xp

Going back to the engineers, the outliers are RET, RE and SP. RET is easy to know the reason, because they used to cost (IIRC) near 160mp and the xp value was never updated. Not sure about RE but SP case was cause they were deemed to hard to vet pass the early game.

The list is indicator but I have to point out why these units are on the list. from the ones you mentioned:

There are some clear cases (like Pioneers) while others are rather subjective based on gameplay/balance arguments/POVs. For example given how the Commissar has significantly less combat potential than the Sturm Offizier, I think it's fine that it has lower vet requirements.

I would suggest to start with drawing a list of the clear/obvious cases, and then later add the more subjective ones based on the outcome of the discussions. Probably best to create a google spreadsheet with all the vet requirements (and cost, shared vet y/n, etc) so it's easy to make comparisons, although that's going to be quite a lot of work.

jp4 and su85 have to brought in line for sure.

I haven't seen a vet 5 command panther since it got tied to tech, though I don't even remember seeing a single vet 5 regular OKW panther in over a year of 2v2 matches either.

all I know is that rifleman really need to have their veterancy reworked, losing one squad at any point of the game is just near impossible to replace it in a feasible way, unlike every other mainline infantry.
Volks are kinda similar but you at least have flamenades and snare at vet0 which help a lot with vetting + the -10% RA on vet1. Rifles only stop being a huge mp bleed at vet3 which they take forever to achieve.

and yeah, the allied stock mediums also need a vet reduction too.

There are some clear cases (like Pioneers) while others are rather subjective based on gameplay/balance arguments/POVs. For example given how the Commissar has significantly less combat potential than the Sturm Offizier, I think it's fine that it has lower vet requirements.

Think you underestimating the Guards mosin or the fact that by vet 1 Commissar get an extra member or over estimate the SO, but regardless the Comissar has the same XP value as the Artillery officer while being allot more combat potent. (In addition the AO suffer from very high reinforcement time).

I would suggest to start with drawing a list of the clear/obvious cases, and then later add the more subjective ones based on the outcome of the discussions. Probably best to create a google spreadsheet with all the vet requirements (and cost, shared vet y/n, etc) so it's easy to make comparisons, although that's going to be quite a lot of work.

On already exists and that where I borrowed the value from:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1644472724

All credits should go to Stein for doing most of the hard work. Well done man.

What I can do is put the units in groups of similar type.

Think you underestimating the Guards mosin or the fact that by vet 1 Commissar get an extra member or over estimate the SO, but regardless the Comissar has the same XP value as the Artillery officer while being allot more combat potent. (In addition the AO suffer from very high reinforcement time).

I could be misreading here but I think you mean penal SVT? The commissar has penal SVTs (held by guards models i think) and 1 pistol if I'm not mistaken

If anything it supports your point more because I believe penal svts are better than guard mosins in most cases

Think you underestimating the Guards mosin or the fact that by vet 1 Commissar get an extra member or over estimate the SO

They get 4/5x Penal SVTs (not Guards Mosin) and a worthless pistol, along with 0.87 target size.
SO gets 3/4x Obers Kar and a pistol / PGren STG 44, along with 0.8 target size.

Veterancy bonuses are roughly the same, but the SO has significantly higher max veterancy DPS at ~ 44,8/20,2 at ranges 10/35 vs the Commissar's 26,6/10,75 along with a slightly smaller target size (0.64 vs 0.67).

I could be misreading here but I think you mean penal SVT? The commissar has penal SVTs (held by guards models i think) and 1 pistol if I'm not mistaken

If anything it supports your point more because I believe penal svts are better than guard mosins in most cases

Thanks for the correction.

They get 4/5x Penal SVTs (not Guards Mosin) and a worthless pistol, along with 0.87 target size.
SO gets 3/4x Obers Kar and a pistol / PGren STG 44, along with 0.8 target size.

Veterancy bonuses are roughly the same, but the SO has significantly higher max veterancy DPS at ~ 44,8/20,2 at ranges 10/35 vs the Commissar's 26,6/10,75 along with a slightly smaller target size (0.64 vs 0.67).

Commissar gets a lethal grenade too. SO just gets a smoke nade iirc

They get 4/5x Penal SVTs (not Guards Mosin) and a worthless pistol, along with 0.87 target size.
SO gets 3/4x Obers Kar and a pistol / PGren STG 44, along with 0.8 target size.

Veterancy bonuses are roughly the same, but the SO has significantly higher max veterancy DPS at ~ 44,8/20,2 at ranges 10/35 vs the Commissar's 26,6/10,75 along with a slightly smaller target size (0.64 vs 0.67).

I would hate to drift of topic specific unit but I have to point out:
Pistol should be fixed and have range 35
Commissar comes with HE grenade
Veterancy bonus are hardly the same:

Show Spoiler

but I pointed out Commissar has the same XP value as Ostheer officer that is allot weaker in combat.

If you want to debate this issue more I can start a separate thread.