Sander's personal balance changes

why does okw gets healing faust and incendiary indirect fire and a machinegun for 100mp/5+100/15 meanwhile the soviet faction pays 250+80/5+125/25+160/15 to unlock the same shit OKW gets.... meanwhile all of OKWs heavy tanks get buffs whereas the changes to soviet faction are a joke... T-70 nerfs but no maxim buffs or earlygame conscript buffs either... then of course the SU-85 gets nerfed and so does the ISU but sure lets buff every OKW heavytank...

i feel these changes are wholly onesided at least when contrasting OKW to SOV changes... lets not forget that sov is the worst performing faction in the game...

Fausts and weapon upgrades would still take a full BGHQ. Nothing changes there.
HMG and indirect would be available for 170mp/20fu, which is in line with other factions.

OKW needs early incendiary grenades because they don't have stock flamethrowers. I don't really see how this is an argument for anything.

Medics would become a lot cheaper to get indeed, but the opposite (live) is that they are ridiculously expensive compared to all other factions (370mp/55fu or a continuous stream of 45mu).

These changes would be a first iteration for testing. If they prove to be too powerful, they could easily be scaled down. I already proposed an alternative for the medics that is simpler.


OKW getting indirect faster would open the door for a Maxim buff. I don't think Cons need anything because of how well they scale now. CE and Penal changes would hopefully give Soviets a bit more options. If testing would reveal Soviets could use more changed I'd be happy to add them, but I can't really think of anything right now. I think they're doing fine at the moment (at least in teamgames), those stats are very outdated by now, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

As for the T-70, it's a major clutch unit that I'd like to (slowly) tone down a bit to see what would be needed to compensate for it. It'd be healthier for the game if ultimately the Soviets had a more balanced mid game.

Fausts and weapon upgrades would still take a full BGHQ. Nothing changes there.
HMG and indirect would be available for 170mp/20fu, which is in line with other factions.

the LEIG outclasses all the indirect fire any faction can get within the 170/20 fuel margin... the LEIG is closer to the pak howitzer than it is to the 80mm+ mortars...

it might be wise to make the ISG require a full BGHQ then make some sort of a mortar equivalent unlocked at partial BGHQ or mech HQ that is unlocked by the partial BGHQ... that or the LEIG needs to have its stats reduced...

OKW needs early incendiary grenades because they don't have stock flamethrowers. I don't really see how this is an argument for anything.

im fine with early incendiary grenades... what im not fine with is how incendiary grenades are free with tech while the molotov is a paid sidegrade...

Medics would become a lot cheaper to get indeed, but the opposite (live) is that they are ridiculously expensive compared to all other factions (370mp/55fu or a continuous stream of 45mu).

im fine with the new medic price of 100/5 + truck cost honestly... but only if that price is what you pay the medics for... what i dont agree with was how the changes seemed to bundle medics with alot of other stuff for a low low price... nearly every other faction pays for their medics individually and not bundling it up with tech

propose that medics be a sidegrade in the main HQ similar to the soviet medics...

OKW getting indirect faster would open the door for a Maxim buff. I don't think Cons need anything because of how well they scale now. CE and Penal changes would hopefully give Soviets a bit more options. If testing would reveal Soviets could use more changed I'd be happy to add them, but I can't really think of anything right now. I think they're doing fine at the moment (at least in teamgames), those stats are very outdated by now, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

the soviets are known to underperform in 1v1 and 2v2s to an extent... they have piss poor performance in under 20 minutes due to the lack of weapon upgrades a useless machinegun and the overreliance on the T-70...

the LEIG outclasses all the indirect fire any faction can get within the 170/20 fuel margin... the LEIG is closer to the pak howitzer than it is to the 80mm+ mortars...

I disagree. The ISG is more accurate and has a bit more range compared to the 82mm mortars, but it has worse AOE and more clumbersome handling. In total I'd say its performance is similar to the 82mm mortars and nowhere near the Pack Howitzer's.

im fine with early incendiary grenades... what im not fine with is how incendiary grenades are free with tech while the molotov is a paid sidegrade...

Incendiary grenades are free because it's the only thing OKW has to fight garrisons early on. Soviets (and Ostheer) don't have to pay for side-tech to unlock flamethrowers either. USF has a T0 mortar and UKF has the T0 Wasp. Molotovs are a bonus, not a necessity, that's why they have a separate tech.

the soviets are known to underperform in 1v1 and 2v2s to an extent... they have piss poor performance in under 20 minutes due to the lack of weapon upgrades a useless machinegun and the overreliance on the T-70...

The Soviets and UKF won the majority of matches in the last 2v2 tournament iirc. They didn't seem particularly bad in ML1 and ML2 either. I don't play 1v1 so I don't know for sure though. Generally speaking they are fine in 3v3 and 4v4. I would love to see some updated stats, but we don't have any.

One also has to point out that there can be UP units/abilities in strong factions and vice versa.

Bringing the units/abilities in line does not necessarily result in actually buffing the faction.

One also has to point out that there can be UP units/abilities in strong factions and vice versa.

Bringing the units/abilities in line does not necessarily result in actually buffing the faction.

Also true. For example I don't think giving the Tiger II slightly lower popcap or giving the Tiger I a bit better vet 2 scatter would result in making OKW more powerful as a faction. It would primarily result in these units simply being a bit more of a viable choice compared to the alternatives.

Is there any time period which we can expect this patch to get released? For example, "Winter Balance Update 2020"? :-)

I disagree. The ISG is more accurate and has a bit more range compared to the 82mm mortars, but it has worse AOE and more clumbersome handling. In total I'd say its performance is similar to the 82mm mortars and nowhere near the Pack Howitzer's.

its higher accuracy shows though... it much easier to damage squads reliably using the LEIG or the pak howi in contrast to any of the 80mm+ mortars... that or im just not a fan of low accuracy weapons

Incendiary grenades are free because it's the only thing OKW has to fight garrisons early on. Soviets (and Ostheer) don't have to pay for side-tech to unlock flamethrowers either. USF has a T0 mortar and UKF has the T0 Wasp. Molotovs are a bonus, not a necessity, that's why they have a separate tech.

incendiary nades wholly outclass the paid molotov upgrade though... not only that but theyre also in a squad that is slightly superior to the base conscript squad and in a faction which (by your suggestion) pays alot of mp for medics while the other faction gets faust and now medics FOR FREE with tech...

The Soviets and UKF won the majority of matches in the last 2v2 tournament iirc. They didn't seem particularly bad in ML1 and ML2 either. I don't play 1v1 so I don't know for sure though. They are generally fine in 3v3 and 4v4.

SOV has alot of synergy with UKF in 2v2s...although id argue that they synergize with USF a bit better... for one UKF and USF can provide aoe healing and reinforcement for SOV... next both factions provide the much needed midgame support SOV needs in the midgame since the other faction can stand in for SOV`s weakness during this time period... lastly sov in tournaments are usually played with either the airborne meta (which provides the much needed machinegun and midgame weapon upgrade for the core soviet faction) or guards motor coordination (which gives the soviets crushingly powerful lategame with the T-34-85 and guards to counter OST light vehicle rushes)... outside of those 2 doctrines SOV has the worst core army performance ingame...

as for 1v1s sov is objetively in the dust...

https://www.coh2.org/topic/105597/1v1-automatch-stats

Is there any time period which we can expect this patch to get released? For example, "Winter Balance Update 2020"? :-)

This isn't patch, this is just wishful thinking of one of the modders.
Miragefla got his own, completely different version, type "miragefla" in steam workshop to check out his changed, which I personally like more.

snip

In what way does the Incendiary Grenade "Completely outclass" the molotov? The molotov has less range, sure, but does approximately the same damage, has no time to "explode", costs 10 less muni, and comes on a squad with a nondoctrinal sprint?

Its downsides are: Requiring an upgrade to use, shorter range, and longer throwing time (Unvetted. At vet the Molotov throws as fast as the Incendiary Grenade and does damage faster due to no arming time). It's not completely outclassed.

Also: As Sanders says, the Incendiary Grenade is OKW's only flame option outside of doctrines. Without it they have absolutely no answer to heavy cover positions, team weapons, and buildings in general. Every other faction has things to deal with these threats other than a flame grenade. Even USF, which has a t0 mortar. Without the Incendiary grenade OKW are pretty fucked early game when it comes to any of these things, whereas Soviets have CEs with Flamethrowers... arguably the strongest handheld flamethrower squad in the game, by virtue of Merge. Molotovs are a "bonus" as opposed to a necessity.

Remember that OKW used to have a Stielhandgranate on volks, it was changed to the Incendiary for a reason.

In what way does the Incendiary Grenade "Completely outclass" the molotov? The molotov has less range, sure, but does approximately the same damage, has no time to "explode", costs 10 less muni, and comes on a squad with a nondoctrinal sprint?

Its downsides are: Requiring an upgrade to use, shorter range, and longer throwing time (Unvetted. At vet the Molotov throws as fast as the Incendiary Grenade and does damage faster due to no arming time). It's not completely outclassed.

range and better vet 0 throwing animation are both important... it means the incendiary nade can be thrown with less distance covered... and plenty of cases where one takes unecessary damage with conscripts that would never occur with volks due to their awful throwing animation

plus the incend nade afaik has a small amount of impact damage on detonation... its quite noticable on low health squads...

Also: As Sanders says, the Incendiary Grenade is OKW's only flame option outside of doctrines. Without it they have absolutely no answer to heavy cover positions, team weapons, and buildings in general. Every other faction has things to deal with these threats other than a flame grenade. Even USF, which has a t0 mortar. Without the Incendiary grenade OKW are pretty fucked early game when it comes to any of these things, whereas Soviets have CEs with Flamethrowers... arguably the strongest handheld flamethrower squad in the game, by virtue of Merge. Molotovs are a "bonus" as opposed to a necessity.

Remember that OKW used to have a Stielhandgranate on volks, it was changed to the Incendiary for a reason.

range and better vet 0 throwing animation are both important... it means the incendiary nade can be thrown with less distance covered... and plenty of cases where one takes unecessary damage with conscripts that would never occur with volks due to their awful throwing animation

plus the incend nade afaik has a small amount of impact damage on detonation... its quite noticable on low health squads...

True, but again the Incendiary grenade is simply OKW's only option against cover early on. Cons, again, have access to Oorah, giving them significantly better mobility than Volks. The fact the Molotov is 33% cheaper than the Incendiary grenade should imply that it ought to have some downsides, as well.

Also: both the Molotov and Incendiary grenade do damage on "explosion", its just that the incendiary grenade's is delayed and is accompanied by a "Bang", which may mislead you into thinking it's due to the grenade itself, rather than just being the first flame tick. I'm testing them in Cheatmod right now, if you have any other thoughts.

As far as i can tell, in terms of damage they are absolutely identical, the only difference being that the Incendiary grenade has a short delay before it spreads its fire.

True, but again the Incendiary grenade is simply OKW's only option against cover early on. Cons, again, have access to Oorah, giving them significantly better mobility than Volks. The fact the Molotov is 33% cheaper than the Incendiary grenade should imply that it ought to have some downsides, as well.

Also: both the Molotov and Incendiary grenade do damage on "explosion", its just that the incendiary grenade's is delayed and is accompanied by a "Bang", which may mislead you into thinking it's due to the grenade itself, rather than just being the first flame tick. I'm testing them in Cheatmod right now, if you have any other thoughts.

As far as i can tell, in terms of damage they are absolutely identical, the only difference being that the Incendiary grenade has a short delay before it spreads its fire.

Would be possible to leave this thread for feedback on the specific changes and create a separate thread about general faction balance?

One wish:
"Breakthrough" in Wehr's Encirclement doctrine is super expensive: 50 fuel for faster movement and capping by tanks.
The price of the ability should be lowered to 30 fuel imo.

Would be possible to leave this thread for feedback on the specific changes and create a separate thread about general faction balance?

Yeah, that's fair.

Sorry, Sander, we're shitting up your thread.

why does okw gets healing faust and incendiary indirect fire and a machinegun for 100mp/5+100/15 meanwhile the soviet faction pays 250+80/5+125/25+160/15 to unlock the same shit OKW gets....

If you combine the cost of the truck itself and the HQ, it's 35-40 fuel (don't remember if Battlegroup is 20 or 25) ad 270 MP. I think the fuel cost justifies that. Also, calling in the truck and setting it up takes quite a long time, usually longer than it takes for other faction buildings/upgrades. As for Soviets, I believe molotov and AT grenade ought to be bundled into one upgrade.

If you combine the cost of the truck itself and the HQ, it's 35-40 fuel (don't remember if Battlegroup is 20 or 25) ad 270 MP. I think the fuel cost justifies that. Also, calling in the truck and setting it up takes quite a long time, usually longer than it takes for other faction buildings/upgrades. As for Soviets, I believe molotov and AT grenade ought to be bundled into one upgrade.

Battlegroup is currently 25 fuel and 200 MP, combined with the truck itself you've got a total of 270mp and 40 fuel for Battlegroup. This is without Medics or the FRP.

If you combine the cost of the truck itself and the HQ, it's 35-40 fuel (don't remember if Battlegroup is 20 or 25) ad 270 MP. I think the fuel cost justifies that. Also, calling in the truck and setting it up takes quite a long time, usually longer than it takes for other faction buildings/upgrades. As for Soviets, I believe molotov and AT grenade ought to be bundled into one upgrade.

not with sander`s suggestions... he proposed the BGHQ cost 5 fuel + the 15 starting fuel of the truck... this would make it the cheapest bundle in the game... you get medics indirect fire an MG and incendiary nades for 170mp + 30 fuel....

not with sander`s suggestions... he proposed the BGHQ cost 5 fuel + the 15 starting fuel of the truck... this would make it the cheapest bundle in the game... you get medics indirect fire an MG and incendiary nades for 170mp + 30 fuel....

No, you're getting confused. Sander has made like 4 versions of suggestions. Sanders' first suggestions split Battlegroup teching in half, with setting up the HQ being cheap and only unlocking LeIG, while a motorized support upgrade like that of USF platoon/company command posts was added that unlocked Uhu and 251/17. Another forum member and I suggested that Battlegroup cost stays the same but automatically unlocks medics instead of forward reinforcement. Under Sanders' first proposed changes, Battlegroup would cost 5 fuel but would not unlock healing (although it would unlock super fast panzerfaust), while under later suggestions Battlegroup cost would remain the same (25 fuel) but unlock medics automatically.

Im still advocating for considering making Medics an HQ upgrade, and allowing you to them move the medics to your Battlegroup if you build one (While also making them heal more effectively once the BG is built)

Though without shuffling units around all this would do is make the BG even less attractive.