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Grens changes

29 Jun 2020, 20:19 PM
#41
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

OP: can you just take a bit more time into thinking why the suggestion is bad?

I guess we are going to have 2 more threads.

Volks changes and Rifles changes. Not like they need anything.


:rofl: Beat me to it.

Personally I'm shocked to learn that balance is SO bad right now that almost every mainline infantry unit is broken...

29 Jun 2020, 20:31 PM
#42
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

What about my suggestion: Remove the RA bonuses associated with the 5man upgrade. All grens should instead receive a 20% DPS increase vs suppressed and pinned units. This will allow better players to use the MG42 more fluidly as they can use the grens to keep the bait squad at bay and the MG can turn to face any flankers.

This will force the allies to retreat their baiting squads earlier, alleviating the MG from worrying about several targets.

Grens should get a bonus against supressed/pinned troops at vet 1 and bp3 should give a damage reduction regardless of vet and 5 man grens should lose the rec acc bonus but maintain the medkits that are lost from 4 man grens. That covers everything from early game fire power lacking to 5 man being too good a choice to late game squishiness. These are design elements that miss their mark. Any other changes should be focused on opposing units and how they interact with grens. Stop the power creep.
29 Jun 2020, 20:31 PM
#43
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Two important points that could be added:

- cons are much better at recrewing stuff due to higher model count and stock (and free) merge vs. four men grens and pios who very often have to die to do that (often a gamechanger).
- can can build sandbags and have hoorah (both stock and don't require tech)


At 6 men men soviets only recrew at 50% models. All others at 75%. So yes 7 men allow cons to do a full recrew. Its kinda their bread and butter since they get no nades or ai upgrade stock. And even with doc it locks out 7th men.
So 240 mp 50 muni and 3rd tier plus extra tech or full tech allows them to do it better. Kinda justyfied aint it? Since they lack other stuff.

Grens get faust and bunkers out of the gate. Next to a t0 mg. Extra starting mp it seems. Next to the other t1 units. Their lmg and riflenade gives acces to paks pgrens etc as well.

The fuast and bunker are not entirely free but pretty dam close. And put the techless mg42 into the equasion where sovs need tech for a worse mg you get a thing known as balance.
Ost and sov imo are well balanced vs eachother.

All 4 men grens need is be a bit better at long range with the lmg 42. So they can bleed approaching inf a bit better and increase their chances of winning a bit if the enemy squad chooses to comit after dropping a model or 2 on aproach.
29 Jun 2020, 22:30 PM
#44
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

And here I was thinking that Ostheer uses 5 men grens because it's the best infantry upgrade that beats any other infantry upgrade in the game by a mile.
29 Jun 2020, 22:38 PM
#45
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
And here I was thinking that Ostheer uses 5 men grens because it's the best infantry upgrade that beats any other infantry upgrade in the game by a mile.


It does beat everything else by a mile. But that's because 4man grens are UP after the section and rifle buffs.
30 Jun 2020, 01:01 AM
#46
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

My suggestion. From the last time we had a similar discussion going on:


SMG weapons have a 0.75 modifier against suppressed units. All others have a 0.5 modifier.

-Make Grens Kar98 (not G43 nor LMG42) do 0.75 or 1.0 Make it a unique thing for Grens.
You would still need combined arms and it's not like vanilla grens are destroying units with their normal accuracy.

Give a reason to use non upgraded bunkers. As cover, they are over valued at 150mp and specially the reinforce bunker who no one uses.

-Make bunkers 50mp to built and then add +100mp to all other upgrades. Alternative you could adjust reinforce bunker cost (and no, giving it retreat is not a solution).


30 Jun 2020, 02:55 AM
#47
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

What about my suggestion: Remove the RA bonuses associated with the 5man upgrade. All grens should instead receive a 20% DPS increase vs suppressed and pinned units. This will allow better players to use the MG42 more fluidly as they can use the grens to keep the bait squad at bay and the MG can turn to face any flankers.

This will force the allies to retreat their baiting squads earlier, alleviating the MG from worrying about several targets.


Remove faust from fiveman and it will encourage players to stop spamming VSL. They will have to mix in a couple of normal LMG grens like soviets do with penals or UKF with engineers.

Fixed
30 Jun 2020, 23:22 PM
#48
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned


Remove faust from fiveman and it will encourage players to stop spamming VSL. They will have to mix in a couple of normal LMG grens like soviets do with penals or UKF with engineers.

Fixed


Another dreadful idea from you. Please, never talk to me again.
1 Jul 2020, 00:16 AM
#49
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Another dreadful idea from you. Please, never talk to me again.

Idk man I kinda agree with them. 5 man is taking away the weaknesses of grens (mobility and squishiness) as well as giving other bonuses. It shouldn't be a role changing complete upgrade, weapons and packages should either refine their existing role (like the LMG does or 7 man for cons) or change it entirely with trade offs (various smg upgrades)

The reason that 5 man is so easy a choice is the same reason that svt cons is- you get a better version with no big trade off. Both are poorly designed in that regard. There should never be a " completely ignore my core upgrades" style weapon for infantry. They should be integrated and be alongside the stock upgrade not replacing it entirely.
1 Jul 2020, 01:11 AM
#50
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



Remove faust from fiveman and it will encourage players to stop spamming VSL. They will have to mix in a couple of normal LMG grens like soviets do with penals or UKF with engineers.

Fixed



Stop posting dumb balance ideas.

Fixed
1 Jul 2020, 03:22 AM
#51
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned

Idk man I kinda agree with them. 5 man is taking away the weaknesses of grens (mobility and squishiness) as well as giving other bonuses. It shouldn't be a role changing complete upgrade, weapons and packages should either refine their existing role (like the LMG does or 7 man for cons) or change it entirely with trade offs (various smg upgrades)

The reason that 5 man is so easy a choice is the same reason that svt cons is- you get a better version with no big trade off. Both are poorly designed in that regard. There should never be a " completely ignore my core upgrades" style weapon for infantry. They should be integrated and be alongside the stock upgrade not replacing it entirely.


Just imagine if we said 7man cons lose their snares, or not single but double bar rifles lose their snare. That is way too harsh of a penalty
1 Jul 2020, 07:43 AM
#52
avatar of Sir Edgelord

Posts: 127



Just imagine if we said 7man cons lose their snares, or not single but double bar rifles lose their snare. That is way too harsh of a penalty

One is a doctrinal ability that removes every (or most of) weaknesses of a unit, that people use instead of a normal LMG upgrade, and is generally better in every way, so it has to be nerfed in some way, and removing the snare is a good way of telling the player that and LMG is an option, like, reminding him it exists.
Others are non-doctrinal and are purely a choice of a player, that don't exactly make the player go "I will never use any other upgrade, this shit's good".
Even for Rifles you have a Doctrinal 1919 upgrade, which is pretty good, you know? For Soviet Cons you have SVT and PPSH. All these are still good and the player doesn't always choose this, while with 5 men Grens it's a problem.
1 Jul 2020, 08:22 AM
#53
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

I think removing snares from 5man grens would be a great way of balancing its power out, and encouraging to try other upgrades like LMG42's and G43's.
1 Jul 2020, 12:50 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I feel the idea is not bad. Yet, 5 men stock pios would be more needed and would cause many fewer balance issues. I'd start with that and start thinking of 5 men gens next. My gut tells me that at this stage ost requires 5 men pios more than 5 men grens.(e.g. last battlephase researched without a building could give you access to them)

With grens I'd only allow their healing to add a wounded model from the field to replace a lost model (crawling corpse).

Grens could also get an ability to click another squad and transfer a model from one squad of the same type to another. It could be called "transfer order" "reassign". It would allow to make one squad remain on the field and retreat only one in situations when two squads lost one model each. It would also help with recrewing.
4 Jul 2020, 22:05 PM
#55
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 469

I´ve been thinking over it. And it really isn´t a problem with grens.
It´s the reliance on mg42 to suppress that is the problem.

I mostly play 2v2, cause 3v3 and 4v4 is very stressful when your not premade.

Maps like poltawa is just hurrendous to play as ostheer. So many shot blockers everywhere. Also ostheer has no elite close infantry like rangers,shocktroops,commandoes, they eat panzer grenadiers for breakfast. So when your mg42 is smoked and their close infantry runs in, you have to retreat your whole army.

Also relying on your mg42 to suppres means your opened up for arty fest. Which every ally knows and will pick a commander that counters like 120mortar, usf mortar halftrack, british mortar pit.

On maps like rails and metals, it´s cake to eat playing ostheer.
But you know i only got 4 vetoes and ostheer needs 6-7 vetoes.

Maybe i should shut my pie hole and go see what other factions play like.
4 Jul 2020, 22:09 PM
#56
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 469

And btw i made this thread only cause it´s boring seeing ostheer play the same commander over and over in tournements
6 Jul 2020, 05:48 AM
#57
avatar of HoverBacon

Posts: 220

I personally think Grens are still a fantastic unit. 3 squads of vet3 grens with mg42s is awesome. They scale extremely well with vet and have a lot of utility, small squads is just a trait of OST. Don't get me wrong, I also love German infantry doctrine but also find myself increasingly playing Osttruppen into 222 and Pgrens, but with so many other doctrines giving Grenadiers various upgrades (there's loads now, Vet squad leaders, G43s, ambush camo, MG42s) stock 5 man squads seems only to serve to make all these other upgrades totally broken until they rebalance all of those too.

I'd rather see 5 man squads added to a couple more commanders when/if we get more commander revamps or additions. I think this would add more flavour (although OST is already the most flavoursome imo) to the faction and is probably the most balanced option. You don't need 5 man grens on a lot of maps but I'd like to see more doctrines which would allow me to take them each tailored to different strengths for different gamemodes and loadouts.
7 Jul 2020, 15:20 PM
#58
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

Watching games with 4men Grens is very rare nowadays.

As mainline infantry, almost every OST player prefer to go with Osttrupen, AssGrens or 5men grens (Infantry Doctrine).

4men squads are very weak, specially with the lot of explosive damage that are in the late game.
7 Jul 2020, 21:44 PM
#59
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2020, 15:20 PMLeo251
Watching games with 4men Grens is very rare nowadays.

As mainline infantry, almost every OST player prefer to go with Osttrupen, AssGrens or 5men grens (Infantry Doctrine).

4men squads are very weak, specially with the lot of explosive damage that are in the late game.


People don't use 4men grens because they can't bruteforce in the same way they can with other mainlines(something you can do better with 5 men grens).

Their inability to survive explosive spam is much less severe when you get to vet 3 with them. They were specifically buffed in that regard in the september balance update last year:

''
Grenadiers

We think Grenadiers are well-priced for their combat performance, but with only 4 models and reliance on being stationary to deal damage, it made them very susceptible to artillery and AOE attacks. Their veterancy has been adjusted to allow late game Grenadiers to resist explosives better, while retaining their current survivability against small-arms.

Veterancy 3 -23% Received Accuracy replaced by -20% damage reduction
''

So no, grens are fine balancewise. It's that other options just tend to be more popular because you can A + M1 more effectively.
8 Jul 2020, 12:59 PM
#60
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311



People don't use 4men grens because they can't bruteforce in the same way they can with other mainlines(something you can do better with 5 men grens).

Their inability to survive explosive spam is much less severe when you get to vet 3 with them. They were specifically buffed in that regard in the september balance update last year:

''
Grenadiers

We think Grenadiers are well-priced for their combat performance, but with only 4 models and reliance on being stationary to deal damage, it made them very susceptible to artillery and AOE attacks. Their veterancy has been adjusted to allow late game Grenadiers to resist explosives better, while retaining their current survivability against small-arms.

Veterancy 3 -23% Received Accuracy replaced by -20% damage reduction
''

So no, grens are fine balancewise. It's that other options just tend to be more popular because you can A + M1 more effectively.


Yeah, I know the existance of that new damage reduction since a few patches ago.
But first of all, you have to reach vet3 with grens. You have to survive the LV stage, specially T70.

This is another example of retarted parabolic buff by Relic, when all that is needed is add a 5th men from stock, or maybe an upgrade like Cons or Sections.
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