State of the ISU-152

That is idea is so bad that it's frightening.

Either this or balance some allied units properly. ISU shouldn't be dual purpose if axis have have access to one purpose units of similar sort for a similar price.

If ISU had AP rounds of 50 range it would be more balaced.

70

Thanks for the correction, I'll try and commit it to memory.
Still very much not cheap. We just had a page of "you can't count on the Brummbärs bunker buster because it's a muni sink" so bringing in an even more expensive ability to highlight the isu AT seems a bit odd.

The sole fact you agree with him is further confirmation of the utter insanity of the idea.

Insanity happens when players build ZiS guns to use them as mortars and pak/mg clearing tools, and You keep defending such design, and don't see a blatant balance issue. Same here. ISU is simply better than axis units of similar price.

You need to understand that just as Panther is mediocre in AI and pretty good at AT, Pz is good at AT and AI. Su-85 has non existent AI and pretty good at AT, T-34 mediocre AI and AT. Now what I want you to understand from this statement is that all the Axis tanks have both AI and AT whereas Soviet has to field SU-85 specifically which lacks AI. Elefant and ISU fits perfectly in this jigsaw where Elefant has no AI and ISU has pretty good AI and mediocre AT for 260 fuel. I don't want to simplify this anymore.

Also in regards to snare Axis have the best of snares and it is the pivot of their structure whereas Allies suffer from it and have to spend fuel to upgrade for snares.

I know mate, I hope this does not sound arrogant but you are talking to one of the few people in this forums that can claim to have seen literally 90% of vehicle stats and one of the even fewer that regularly uses the stats for calculations. I know how these units work, and I don't agree with all of your unit descriptions.
The point is different though. In the first post I quoted to claimed that the ISU had bad scatter at long range which would make it rather ineffective and unreliable vs both AI and AT. I have provided simulation data that regarding AI this is not the case and that the ISU reliably hits squads for at least 20-40% of health if used correctly. To the AT part I responded that ISU and Elefant have the same (actually they only have a very similar) accuracy profile and the ISU has a better scatter profile. So at least regarding hit chances, the ISU is not worse than the Elefant.

I now know even less than before what your train of thought on this matter initially was.

Its not good to do much to a panther facetanking it from 20 range that's supported by at least 1 PaK.
Source: Did that.

At the very best, ISU AT is supplemental as literally anything above PTRS outperforms it by a long shot.
You can't mention damage and deflection without underlining the fact it has longest reload time in game right next to KV-2.

I don't know why you treat it as a revelation that the best AT brawler in the game combined with the best ATG in the game can actually deal with a hybrid unit at one of its weak spots. I would rather say this is quite expected.

Now more to the point: provide some data on your claims, because my calculations say otherwise.
In your scenario - 20 range, ISU vs Panther - the ISU has the same offensive performance as a SU85 with an expected TTK of 32,8 (ISU) vs 32,9 (SU85) (with very slight estimations regarding pen chances since I don't have the tools with me to make a 100% accurate calculation).

The AT is mediocre for its price, yes, but claiming that "anything above PTRS outperforms it by a long shot" is not a hyperbole, it's almost a lie. You regularly ask people for replays (which is alright) to back up their claims after claiming units were OP or UP. So I ask you now for your calculations on stats.

I just don't agree. Soviets are much more versatile and their units trade much better. Watch tourneys and see for yourself. You can't just debunk every argument of a person who writes all that based on actual gameplay with all factions and watching hundreds of game replays, etc. I'm trying to pinpoint why it is easier to play with Soviets than it is to play with both Axis factions. If you believe that playing with axis is easier, we probably won't find common ground when discussing the game in its current state. Allies are easier to play with, and to me it is just a fact.

ISU is imo just an example of a very potent dual purpose unit with crazy range and armour, and not that bad mobility. It exists in doctrines with stuff like mark target, guards button and off maps. If you just don't see how powerful and imbalanced that is you are imo just almost blind. If ISU could deal with only infantry it would be an assymetrical counterpart to Elphant/Ferdinant. That would actually be ok as it wouldn't overlap with other doctrine tied abilities. In its current state it is just a bad design in relation to other units from opposing factions.

I just find it really difficult to discuss stuff which is based on advice "just rush it with panther". It is so biased and not acknowledging a simple fact how much better one should be to pull sth like that off.

How are soviets versatile? None of their units can stand up to axis units in late game; cons are just paper scripts even with 7 men and penals lack snaring since their satchel requires small distance and with ptrs they are very bad against AI. Whereas you get grens with sniping capability, rifle nade, bunker building and forward med healing. This is the backbone infantry.

SU-85 is AT only and no one in his sane mind would field T34 to counter pz4. Katyusha is ineffective in wiping infantry as compared to Pzwrfr. T70 is infantry only and SU-76 is AT only. Maxim has worse arc and suppresses slower. Yes very versatile. You cannot consider a tourney of top 20 players and generalize it for the rest of 50-60k player base and all the 4 modes.

If you think rushing with panther is idiotic how do you plan on killing an Elefant? Anything else with 70 range and enough HP to counter elefant except 17 pounder? You call this commander powerful it is an exact counter part of Elefant doctrine which provides scopes, imagine scopes on 70 range 300 dmg 400 frontal armor machine. Stuka dive bomb, stun on Elefant and recon.

You cry for asymmetricity because elefant does not have AI? That has to be one of the most stupid debate on this thread. Do you see any AI on stock SU-85 and it being a casemate? Do you see anyone crying about SU-85 that does not have AI and all the other OST tanks pz4, panther and a stock OP AI tank in brummbar has AI? good going mate! Do share your player card just so I know I am not wasting my time here.

You regularly ask people for replays (which is alright) to back up their claims after claiming units were OP or UP. So I ask you now for your calculations on stats.

i have it right here for you: Axis op.

Thanks for the correction, I'll try and commit it to memory.
Still very much not cheap. We just had a page of "you can't count on the Brummbärs bunker buster because it's a muni sink" so bringing in an even more expensive ability to highlight the isu AT seems a bit odd.

There are few difference:
The guy was comparing the barrage ability with auto fire and that is simply misleading.
The ISU-152 shot is vet 0 the barrage is vet 1.


What I have pointed is that if deflection damage is not enough vs high armor target one has the add option of using the skill shot that has higher penetration.

There have been a number of posts describing the AT capability of ISU-152 as bad. I have simply pointed out that with high damage, decent penetration, deflection damage, skill shot and access to mark target describing the AT performance of ISU-152 as bad is simply wrong.

You can tell by the posts in this thread who plays this game at a high level and who doesn't.

calling a Panther mediocre AI, mediocre to what an AEC?

Panther has 2 mgs that have 0.7 near accuracy and they play a major role in killing infantry or decrewing TW.

.

Your knowledge of opposing factions seems very limited.

I don't see much sense discussing things with U before You start using, for example, panzerwerfer yourself. Your knowledge of axis factions seems very superficial. Can U show Your player card?

Your knowledge of opposing factions seems very limited.

I don't see much sense discussing things with U before You start using, for example, panzerwerfer yourself. Your knowledge of axis factions seems very superficial. Can U show Your player card?

Your claims for balance seems more biased towards axis, looks like you are just another axis fanboy and this is merely another axis fanboy vs allied fanboy thread.
Also do humor me you believe Katyusha has better wiping capabilities than Panzerwerfer? This goes on to say your experience in the game.

As for the player card xD I wouldn't have asked for yours if mine was private lmao I can't figure out how you can't see my card since I linked it to this account from day 1.

Do me a favor and see how long it takes a Panther fully vetted with MG to kill a Zis. And while you're at it, why don't you guys (Katitof and Sumi) provide some replays of a single Panther countering an ISU rather than just heresay and "I watched it in a cast" provided your opponent is of a worthwhile skill level

Panther has 2 mgs that have 0.7 near accuracy and they play a major role in killing infantry or decrewing TW.

They are effective when a unit is very close to those infantry squads. They aren't effective far. That is often a snare region and again it puts the unit into a grater risk.

Tbh, I'd take a nerf to the Panthers armor or HP in turn for better anti inf capabilities given its supposed to perform as a premium medium. Maybe make it similar to CoH1's Panther that excelled at killing individual models with its main gun but little AoE damage

There are few difference:
The guy was comparing the barrage ability with auto fire and that is simply misleading.
The ISU-152 shot is vet 0 the barrage is vet 1.


What I have pointed is that if deflection damage is not enough vs high armor target one has the add option of using the skill shot that has higher penetration.

There have been a number of posts describing the AT capability of ISU-152 as bad. I have simply pointed out that with high damage, decent penetration, deflection damage, skill shot and access to mark target describing the AT performance of ISU-152 as bad is simply wrong.

Fair enough. However I think most of us can agree combination with Mark target needs to go, saying the isu isnt bad because of the combination of another ability at all let alone one we agree needs to go isn't really fair. It's like when FMR was OP. We didn't say shock were OP, just that the combination was too strong.
The isu has alright AT. it's not good, certainly not something a player can rely on solely (or would even want to since then it's not bleeding infantry) and it's not bad either. It just is.
ISU AT is a bit like the m42 canister shots. Itll help if you need it to, but if you are leaving it on you are wasting the unit.

Tbh, I'd take a nerf to the Panthers armor or HP in turn for better anti inf capabilities given its supposed to perform as a premium medium. Maybe make it similar to CoH1's Panther that excelled at killing individual models with its main gun but little AoE damage

Exactly.

I'd really make those AT rounds on ISU have much smaller range than 70.

Exactly.

I'd really make those AT rounds on ISU have much smaller range than 70.

And it will change nearly nothing. If the AT shells are what's giving you a hard time I've got news for you....

Your claims for balance seems more biased towards axis, looks like you are just another axis fanboy and this is merely another axis fanboy vs allied fanboy thread.
Also do humor me you believe Katyusha has better wiping capabilities than Panzerwerfer? This goes on to say your experience in the game.

As for the player card xD I wouldn't have asked for yours if mine was private lmao I can't figure out how you can't see my card since I linked it to this account from day 1.

Your steam ID is currently set to private. If you go to your profile select "update profile" and change "steam visibility" to "public" it should allow your playercard to display.