Sturmtiger vs AVRE - in a very good spot right now?

best thing about Sturmtiger in coh2 at the moment is the victory strike

Personally, I would like to see a rework of these units. The AVRE could easily be reworked to function like a brummbar, auto attack and less lethal per shot. It would probably be more lethal with constant pressure. The Sturm tiger I am not so sure how exactly.

Well, my personal take on it is that KT, ele, JT, ISU and these two should NEVER be in the game in the first place, but they are and let's do whatever is needed to keep them niche options instead of wanting to buff them to meta level.

ST might be harder to use then AVRE, but we've seen games where it wrecks everything just as well as AVRE.
This is why I'm saying both are fine.

I see you're also going for a streak on logical fallacies here - now on the menu: anecdotal evidence - the "dude trust me, I've seen it" argument. The best way to refute the facts pointing that AVRE is superior in many aspects to the current ST.

If we want to continue this path of holding casual personal (and extremely vague) testimonies as evidence I assume you are the first one to deduce that since allies won every single one of the UTT2 grand finals they are indeed very OP and need to be nerfed right away (doing anything else would be quite hypocritical don't you think)

Both sides have a unit performing in an identical role. It is nothing but double standards to treat the other very differently balance wise which has been the case so far and it has been pointed out multiple times.

On top there is a poll where you can just simply state that it is okay to AVRE to perform significantly better in the identical role as the Sturmtiger for the exact same price - and it is perfectly fine to think that just based on the gut feeling. I must warn though that this forum has a large variety of not-so-flattering terms reserved for people frantically defending the balance disparity between certain sides without facts.

Personally, I would like to see a rework of these units. The AVRE could easily be reworked to function like a brummbar, auto attack and less lethal per shot. It would probably be more lethal with constant pressure. The Sturm tiger I am not so sure how exactly.

The easiest, fairest and the least controversial way would be to treat them equally. Either make them both an utter meme which will never see the light of day in tryhard games or make Sturmtiger identical to AVRE by for example removing manual reload and animation while standardizing firing times and vet.

Currently their balance treatment has not been equal and there has been 0 justification for it. Either both of these units are beyond saving or they both can be reworked and become viable. There is no in-between.

implementing them in to the game was the problem to begin with, now after 1 click wipes have largely been removed they (relic&us) are stuck with balancing previous fun toys that are capable of ruining a game in one shot

I would suggest redesigning both units. Units that are design to one shoot infatry are badly designed for game that is based on unit preservation. They would tend to be either OP or UP.

Add utility with these units have less change to wipe (either lower damage or add maximum number of casualties per squad) and add more criticals vs targets.

For instance vs:
Vehicles causing injured driver/gunner critical
Support causing suppression/stun or retreat
Infantry causing a new critical "shell shock" suffering reduced speed/accuracy for 15-30 or until fully healed.

pretentious dribble

Can cromwell have side skirts please, can tommies have snares, can grens have non doc 5 men, can the stug have a rotatable turret, can the land matress have a driver, can the werfer be decrewed by small arms, can the stuka have WP rounds, can the P4 and panther have smoke shells.

Just because they offer a similar role doesn't mean they have to be the exact same and yes, believe it or not, synergy does have a lot to say in the terms of a units power. You can have a KT and a sturm on the field at the same time, that's no joke you could potentially have in a 2v2 game 2 ST's and 2 KT's to fight... Compare that to 2 AVRE's.

The grenade shot isn't anything to turn your nose up at either.

I did one more test in cheat mod and can now also say that compared to AVRE Sturmtiger is extremely unreliable even with pinpoint bullseye hits against AT Guns. (thanks to Loxley for mentioning this to me initially)

Both of the projectiles can clip on the green cover provided by the actual AT gun so the explosion can happen a bit quicker than where the shot was targeted. For AVRE this was a non-issue due to the damage profile (or whatever it is called) being so potent even at the edge of the explosion so that AT guns (tested on 6 man non-clumped ZiS crews for maximum survivability) were wiped almost all the time.

For the Sturmtiger things get bad. If the rocket hits the actual AT gun there is a very significant (around 40% at least by my tests with a sample size of 10 zis crews) chance the crew survives and will continue to fire. This is due to the neutered damage outside the immediate blast area so even if all the crew members were on the explosion zone some not being at the dead center of it survived. This makes it a gamble to try and score direct hits against AT guns while the AVRE bears no such risk.

Once again OKW gets the shortest end of the stick since the raketen has no gun shield and the gun will not protect it from the AVRE yeeting. Also the Rak retreat animation where the crew runs forward before retreating and lack of reverse function make it much easier to wipe compared to other AT guns if it gets caught off guard. (and wehr has no 6 man crews either for that matter)

Can cromwell have side skirts please, can tommies have snares, can grens have non doc 5 men, can the stug have a rotatable turret, can the land matress have a driver, can the werfer be decrewed by small arms, can the stuka have WP rounds, can the P4 and panther have smoke shells.

Just because they offer a similar role doesn't mean they have to be the exact same and yes, believe it or not, synergy does have a lot to say in the terms of a units power. You can have a KT and a sturm on the field at the same time, that's no joke you could potentially have in a 2v2 game 2 ST's and 2 KT's to fight... Compare that to 2 AVRE's.

The grenade shot isn't anything to turn your nose up at either.

The changelog is very clear why the Sturmtigers oneshot potential was neutered - if need be refer to the initial post or the actual changelog if you want to fact check it. Synergy was never among the reasons behind the ST nerf for some weird reason.

My argument is based on facts gathered from the changelog and my easily observations that any player that owns the game can replicate. Feel free to prove them wrong but currently people seem to disagree with the current status quo where the AVRE is significantly better than the ST

For how hard the ST is to use and fit into a build, one would think it'd be better than an AVRE. It's a blatant double standard that the AVRE has kept the damage profile that made the ST "OP" on top of being much easier to use. Are insta-wipes only OP when allies are on the receiving end?

Give the ST back either its old base range OR world piercing (this would fix a ton collission issues). The damage profile nerf was enough to solve the constant wipes, but it was also applied after nerfing its range and projectile piercing, completely overkill.

At the very least fix the ST's bugged/shitty vet bonuses and remove the manual reload/abandon crap, no one cares about the crew animation besides relic. It's another case of 5 mediocre vet levels being detrimental to a unit compared to 3 useful ones.

The changelog is very clear why the Sturmtigers oneshot potential was neutered - if need be refer to the initial post or the actual changelog if you want to fact check it. Synergy was never among the reasons behind the ST nerf for some weird reason.

My argument is based on facts gathered from the changelog and my easily observations that any player that owns the game can replicate. Feel free to prove them wrong but currently people seem to disagree with the current status quo where the AVRE is significantly better than the ST

And? Does every unit require equality? The 42 is a far better MG at pining than the vickers and it has vet abilities, what are we going to do about that? Don't forget the ST can fire the grenade so it can pick off other targets.

The ST doctrine is far more useful than the AVRE as a whole, and the ST was nerfed because it would one shot multiple tanks from out of vision and through buildings.

Does it need changing? Probably tweaking here and there but for fuck sake, don't start with well X has the same role and does it better otherwise it will never end.

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