5man grens OP?

How about a little extra range such a 40 from 35? This could make them able support other units who draw fire rather then fight for themselves?

A the original design of scoped G43s.

Yes that could be an option. These unit thou should focus more on the utility of providing sight and less on dealing damage and serve more like support utility units.

How about a little extra range such a 40 from 35? This could make them able support other units who draw fire rather then fight for themselves?

That would be great. Definitely have hold fire though! Scout and support.

Pioneers combat ability is not fine. Even with a perfect engagement they still generally lose. A unit in the early game that can not fight is generally worthless. In 1v1s where units are spread out and only really on their positioning they can not win. In team games where groups of enemies they contribute nothing. Assault grenadiers fills in an unnecessary void created by the lack of T0 Grens and weak pioneers.

Sound is huge problem with confidence and convey damage. We have the mp40 sound used by the lack luster pioneers and weapon teams defense weapon for years now.

People generally keep their rocket arty in one general location. Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it. Alternatively if it were in range, the rockets have more travel time to their target if the unit is a long range dps unit rather than a close range unit. Travel time is the key from when the sound of firing is first heard to impact time.

Panzergrens are better at flanking then Stormtroopers. Able to engage at longer distance put more damage on target. Their mid range damage allows to be much better at close range because then can drop a model faster and quicker. Their more general purpose thus making superior.

I do not deny Stormtroopers have good damage, they are very out shined by everything else. Their three doctrines that they are in even support other units better. Stormtroopers with G43s are hands better then the SMG upgrade. Encirclement doctrine has ambush camouflage making the Panzergrendiers even a better option plus grenadiers can get into the stealth ambush game. Infantry Stormtrooper have to contend with grenadiers and pioneers whom offer more durability as well as damage.

Pioneers are capable of doing damage, and you practically contradict yourself here. Earlier you stated that "The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage". You'll have sweepers on those in the mid to late game so we are looking at the firepower of a 4 man squad but the durability of 5. Early game, pios still have that firepower since they lack sweepers, they just don't have that durability.
The other possibility is that you meant non sweeper 5 man pios, but that's just silly. No sweepers on your pios is a rookie mistake, you surely don't mean this do you?


I never mentioned sound. And I am not sure how sound increases a unit's utility.


Saying people generally keep their rocket artillery in one location... At what rank? I'm guessing we are talking in the 1000s? And seriously, nobody is concerned about long range infantry threatening their rocket arty with exception of the land mattress. All you need to do is give a shift reverse command to order it back to base after firing. And it is true that for SOME rocket arty, travel time does vary based on distance, but I don't think that 10-15 extra range is a huge deal unless we are talking a point blank rocket barrage in which case the person controlling the rockets would drive up to the long range infantry as well.


Panzergrenadiers are not necessarily better at flanking, because they cannot as easily approach without being spotted due to lack of commando cammo. In addition, the midrange dps of the Stormtrooper Mp40s is still rather good for an smg with 7.14 at 15 range compared to shocks with 4.78 at the same range and commandoes at 5.68. Finally, if you approach from the correct direction, tactical advance will let you shred the squad even as it tries to retreat. With tactical advance, the stormtrooper mp40s will outdamage the panzergrenadiers at mid range.


Stormtroopers are not just good for the damage that they do but the utilities they provide. They are what PPSH partisans wish they could be. There is also a difference between the ambush camouflage upgrade, and stormtrooper camo. The ambush camo only works if the upgraded unit STAYS in cover. The stormtrooper camo persists for a bit even after leaving cover, and that leway makes ALL the difference.

I already listed the strengths one of which was high damage but i guess you didn't read it so i'll list them again:

The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.

It's not just the damage output, its also the other attributes that make them useful.

.. In addition, the midrange dps of the Stormtrooper Mp40s is still rather good for an smg with 7.14 at 15 range compared to shocks with 4.78 at the same range and commandoes at 5.68. ...

According to https://coh2.serealia.ca/#75

DPS for Mp40 at range 15 is 5.8 and for shocks 4.2 and given 6 weapon instead of 4 the shock should have an edge.

According to weapon report the DPS is
stormtrooper_mp40_smg_mp 18.7/18.7/7.1/0.1
shock troops_ppsh-41_sub_machine_gun_mp 14.2/14.2/4.8/0.1

and given the 6 instead of 4 weapon the DPS at range 15 is about the same.

Pioneers are capable of doing damage, and you practically contradict yourself here. Earlier you stated that "The 5 man squad upgrade allows them to do actual damage". You'll have sweepers on those in the mid to late game so we are looking at the firepower of a 4 man squad but the durability of 5. Early game, pios still have that firepower since they lack sweepers, they just don't have that durability.
The other possibility is that you meant non sweeper 5 man pios, but that's just silly. No sweepers on your pios is a rookie mistake, you surely don't mean this do you?


I never mentioned sound. And I am not sure how sound increases a unit's utility.


Saying people generally keep their rocket artillery in one location... At what rank? I'm guessing we are talking in the 1000s? And seriously, nobody is concerned about long range infantry threatening their rocket arty with exception of the land mattress. All you need to do is give a shift reverse command to order it back to base after firing. And it is true that for SOME rocket arty, travel time does vary based on distance, but I don't think that 10-15 extra range is a huge deal unless we are talking a point blank rocket barrage in which case the person controlling the rockets would drive up to the long range infantry as well.


Panzergrenadiers are not necessarily better at flanking, because they cannot as easily approach without being spotted due to lack of commando cammo. In addition, the midrange dps of the Stormtrooper Mp40s is still rather good for an smg with 7.14 at 15 range compared to shocks with 4.78 at the same range and commandoes at 5.68. Finally, if you approach from the correct direction, tactical advance will let you shred the squad even as it tries to retreat. With tactical advance, the stormtrooper mp40s will outdamage the panzergrenadiers at mid range.


Stormtroopers are not just good for the damage that they do but the utilities they provide. They are what PPSH partisans wish they could be. There is also a difference between the ambush camouflage upgrade, and stormtrooper camo. The ambush camo only works if the upgraded unit STAYS in cover. The stormtrooper camo persists for a bit even after leaving cover, and that leway makes ALL the difference.

I already listed the strengths one of which was high damage but i guess you didn't read it so i'll list them again:

The unique attributes stormtroopers bring to the table-exceptional CQC dps, passive self healing, faster decapture rate then normal troops, commando type stealth, extreme wipe potential with tactical advance, the ability to lay booby traps, the ability to basically twoshot caches, and one of only two stock ostheer units to have smoke.

It's not just the damage output, its also the other attributes that make them useful.

I was refering to un-upgraded pioneer squads are weak. Like I said before, deal no damage and in perfect engagements for them, they still lose. A squad like that should win vs units like conscripts if they get a perfect engagement but they do not.

And once again you are not understanding the rocket arty point. The position of the infantry squad in relation to the rocket arty determines reaction. Things go up things come down. Longer they go up the longer they come down. CQB units are naturally closer to the rocket arty units. I am not saying they are in combat with the rocket arty, I am saying their role makes them closer thus high lethality, from reduce scatter and reduce reaction time. This is 101 stuff. People generally fire from the same spot whether they reposition or not. Max range barrages are usually fired at the same target or at enemies at the same range. People who reposition them back usually put them near the same spot because they know they are in range or are protected. This is from observation of rank 10-100 for 3v3s.

Tactical advance is a double edge sword. If you were to use it on panzergrens at mid range the panzergrens would win because the stormtroopers would evaporate. It is only good against retreating units or undefended units. It is a crutch that is it and still panzergrens out preform them.

They only offer a smoke grenade for utility. Booby Trap is expensive especially for Osteer and only the Elite Troop's Stormtroopers have the lack of munitions sink for this ability. They would be better off with shu mines for they are cheaper and not tied to a point.

Partisans in general need a rework.

Panzergrens mid range damage will play more of a role then you would think. Take a look at range 20 pgrens have about 6.99 while stormtroopers have 1.78 Most engages are farther than this point. The damage done before they get at 10 range is extremely important. A 340 manpower unit who sole purpose to only win a few engagements is a waste of a unit and doctrinal slot. This unit needs reworked.

What I am saying the CQB DPS is worthless seeing they die way to quickly and are out classed. They drop models so their passive healing does not really matter. They rare able to use it anyways. The faster de-capture rarely makes an impact. That is about 1.5-3 seconds depending on the point, this is nothing. While the stealth is lenient but the first strike bonus is almost as powerful and not a double edge sword.

I was refering to un-upgraded pioneer squads are weak. Like I said before, deal no damage and in perfect engagements for them, they still lose. A squad like that should win vs units like conscripts if they get a perfect engagement but they do not.

And once again you are not understanding the rocket arty point. The position of the infantry squad in relation to the rocket arty determines reaction. Things go up things come down. Longer they go up the longer they come down. CQB units are naturally closer to the rocket arty units. I am not saying they are in combat with the rocket arty, I am saying their role makes them closer thus high lethality, from reduce scatter and reduce reaction time. This is 101 stuff. People generally fire from the same spot whether they reposition or not. Max range barrages are usually fired at the same target or at enemies at the same range. People who reposition them back usually put them near the same spot because they know they are in range or are protected. This is from observation of rank 10-100 for 3v3s.

Tactical advance is a double edge sword. If you were to use it on panzergrens at mid range the panzergrens would win because the stormtroopers would evaporate. It is only good against retreating units or undefended units. It is a crutch that is it and still panzergrens out preform them.

They only offer a smoke grenade for utility. Booby Trap is expensive especially for Osteer and only the Elite Troop's Stormtroopers have the lack of munitions sink for this ability. They would be better off with shu mines for they are cheaper and not tied to a point.

Partisans in general need a rework.

Panzergrens mid range damage will play more of a role then you would think. Take a look at range 20 pgrens have about 6.99 while stormtroopers have 1.78 Most engages are farther than this point. The damage done before they get at 10 range is extremely important. A 340 manpower unit who sole purpose to only win a few engagements is a waste of a unit and doctrinal slot. This unit needs reworked.

What I am saying the CQB DPS is worthless seeing they die way to quickly and are out classed. They drop models so their passive healing does not really matter. They rare able to use it anyways. The faster de-capture rarely makes an impact. That is about 1.5-3 seconds depending on the point, this is nothing. While the stealth is lenient but the first strike bonus is almost as powerful and not a double edge sword.

And I'm saying your argument that "5man pios" are decent damage dealers, while unupgraded pios aren't doesn't add up. If the damage is so pitiful, a 25% increase in pitiful damage is not worth noting. And this is also ignoring the fact that you typically run sweepers on your pios in the mid late game. So a 5 man pio is only going to have 4 guns anyway. Early game you dont need sweepers so you also have 4 guns on your unupgraded pios.

I understand your rocket point. That because a close range troop must theoretically approach the enemy in order to reach their optimum range, they are therefore putting themselves closer which against SOME rocket artillery means shorter projectile travel time.
First, the two german rocket artillery take the same amount of time to land regardless of distance. However since we are talking about german infantry I'll ignore those for now.

Lets take a hypothetical scenario where I want to close range nuke an enemy infantry squad. I have decided that 40 meters is a good range to barrage the enemy squad. If the enemy infantry is static, I start firing at 40 meters and target slightly behind them, and the projectile travel time is -just for argument sake- 1 second.
If the enemy infantry is moving towards me, I ALSO fire at 40 meters, but I fire slightly ahead of them, and the time to impact is the same 1 second. Either way time to impact is the same since I targeted 40 meters out from my rocket arty.
I assume your point about rockets is from close range, because if the rockets are firing from max range then 10-15 meters closer isn't going to matter and the scatter is going to be wonky enough that both squads have a similar chance of getting wiped.

Regarding moving back to the same spot, you said "Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it." I assume we are talking about long range infantry and not long range vehicles. Why are you letting long range infantry get close enough to "force your rocket unit to move"? Are you letting them sit there 30 meters from the frontline?
Either way, unless your opponent is a complete fool, this is not a real advantage for long range infantry.

Saying tactical advance is a "CRUTCH" implies to me that you think it is there to make up for their lack of damage. It is not. It is a tool that lets them punch well above their weight against squads who are distracted, or become wiping machines against troops that are retreating. You don't use tactical advance on squads who are ready to fire on you. You use them on troops who are already engaged or are caught out of position. It requires more thought then "Oh instant damage boost! Yes plz!"
If you are sending your stormtroopers on a flanking run without using their "advanced" camo, then you are playing wrong.

Mid range dps is useful, but you don't need a unit to have excellent mid range dps in order to be useful. Nobody complains about commandos. At the moment they are underutilized because sections are so good and are in relatively off meta commanders, but nobody is calling for buffs on commandos. And commandos have a very similar role to stormtroopers.


The first strike bonus is good no doubt, but has nowhere near the utility of the tactical advance, being able to activate it whenever you want makes it far more versatile then an ability that activates once if the unit attacks out of camo, and cant reset unless it exits combat and goes back into camo.



Ostheer operates strongest in combined arms. Stormtroopers are excellent for this, you take a bad long range engagement- say grens in heavy cover against a conscript and a guard, then sneak your stormtroopers into close range. Getting into their stronger range is something that Panzer grenadiers actually struggle with.

Tactical advance is a double edge sword. If you were to use it on panzergrens at mid range the panzergrens would win because the stormtroopers would evaporate. It is only good against retreating units or undefended units. It is a crutch that is it and still panzergrens out preform them.

What does "crutch" mean to you? Because to me it means an an ability that requires little skill to use effectively and can paper over a player's weaknesses. So Tactical Advance would not be a crutch because it is situational and risky.

The real crutch in German Infantry doctrine is obviously Veteran Squad Leader, whether or not it is OP.

And I'm saying your argument that "5man pios" are decent damage dealers, while unupgraded pios aren't doesn't add up. If the damage is so pitiful, a 25% increase in pitiful damage is not worth noting. And this is also ignoring the fact that you typically run sweepers on your pios in the mid late game. So a 5 man pio is only going to have 4 guns anyway. Early game you dont need sweepers so you also have 4 guns on your unupgraded pios.

I understand your rocket point. That because a close range troop must theoretically approach the enemy in order to reach their optimum range, they are therefore putting themselves closer which against SOME rocket artillery means shorter projectile travel time.
First, the two german rocket artillery take the same amount of time to land regardless of distance. However since we are talking about german infantry I'll ignore those for now.

Lets take a hypothetical scenario where I want to close range nuke an enemy infantry squad. I have decided that 40 meters is a good range to barrage the enemy squad. If the enemy infantry is static, I start firing at 40 meters and target slightly behind them, and the projectile travel time is -just for argument sake- 1 second.
If the enemy infantry is moving towards me, I ALSO fire at 40 meters, but I fire slightly ahead of them, and the time to impact is the same 1 second. Either way time to impact is the same since I targeted 40 meters out from my rocket arty.
I assume your point about rockets is from close range, because if the rockets are firing from max range then 10-15 meters closer isn't going to matter and the scatter is going to be wonky enough that both squads have a similar chance of getting wiped.

Regarding moving back to the same spot, you said "Longer range units can easily force a rocket unit to move inorder to fire, delaying it." I assume we are talking about long range infantry and not long range vehicles. Why are you letting long range infantry get close enough to "force your rocket unit to move"? Are you letting them sit there 30 meters from the frontline?
Either way, unless your opponent is a complete fool, this is not a real advantage for long range infantry.

Saying tactical advance is a "CRUTCH" implies to me that you think it is there to make up for their lack of damage. It is not. It is a tool that lets them punch well above their weight against squads who are distracted, or become wiping machines against troops that are retreating. You don't use tactical advance on squads who are ready to fire on you. You use them on troops who are already engaged or are caught out of position. It requires more thought then "Oh instant damage boost! Yes plz!"
If you are sending your stormtroopers on a flanking run without using their "advanced" camo, then you are playing wrong.

Mid range dps is useful, but you don't need a unit to have excellent mid range dps in order to be useful. Nobody complains about commandos. At the moment they are underutilized because sections are so good and are in relatively off meta commanders, but nobody is calling for buffs on commandos. And commandos have a very similar role to stormtroopers.


The first strike bonus is good no doubt, but has nowhere near the utility of the tactical advance, being able to activate it whenever you want makes it far more versatile then an ability that activates once if the unit attacks out of camo, and cant reset unless it exits combat and goes back into camo.



Ostheer operates strongest in combined arms. Stormtroopers are excellent for this, you take a bad long range engagement- say grens in heavy cover against a conscript and a guard, then sneak your stormtroopers into close range. Getting into their stronger range is something that Panzer grenadiers actually struggle with.

Five man pios with flamer, short hand.

For Rocket Arty, 20 range does matter for scatter, plus travel time. Most people fire max range barrages. This is my observation. If a the rocket arty have to reposition, they generally miss. Also the Pwerfer it clearly effected by travel time.

By the time get into combat they are usually dead. They do lack mid range damage, thus they do get outclassed by pgrens. Commandos have 5 men. They can take a model drop. They can be upgraded with brens and often are for more mid range damage rather than close range. Additionally, UKF has no counter part to commandos. Royal engineers do not have a similar DPS curve. Osteer does have a counterpart to stormtroopers. Any unit can be used for flanking, though only weapon teams for pioneers. Panzergrens does it better than stormtroopers because they can do it at more of a distance. The bundle grenade, only sightly more expensive offers even high damage than tactical advance and quicker as well. Stormtroopers are outclassed and out shined by panzergrens. The bundle grenade is much better, more purposeful and reasonable than Tactical Advance. Tactical Advance offers very little in capability.

What does "crutch" mean to you? Because to me it means an an ability that requires little skill to use effectively and can paper over a player's weaknesses. So Tactical Advance would not be a crutch because it is situational and risky.

The real crutch in German Infantry doctrine is obviously Veteran Squad Leader, whether or not it is OP.

That was a counter argument removed from context.

Five man pios with flamer, short hand.

For Rocket Arty, 20 range does matter for scatter, plus travel time. Most people fire max range barrages. This is my observation. If a the rocket arty have to reposition, they generally miss. Also the Pwerfer it clearly effected by travel time.

By the time get into combat they are usually dead. They do lack mid range damage, thus they do get outclassed by pgrens. Commandos have 5 men. They can take a model drop. They can be upgraded with brens and often are for more mid range damage rather than close range. Additionally, UKF has no counter part to commandos. Royal engineers do not have a similar DPS curve. Osteer does have a counterpart to stormtroopers. Any unit can be used for flanking, though only weapon teams for pioneers. Panzergrens does it better than stormtroopers because they can do it at more of a distance. The bundle grenade, only sightly more expensive offers even high damage than tactical advance and quicker as well. Stormtroopers are outclassed and out shined by panzergrens. The bundle grenade is much better, more purposeful and reasonable than Tactical Advance. Tactical Advance offers very little in capability.

If your observation is "most people fire from max range", I question the skill levels of the players you are observing.
If you are talking max range for say katyusha. 20 range is only 10% of their stock maximum range, so we are talking 10% better scatter and 10% quicker time on target. I don't know the exact numbers for travel time, but I can tell you that even with 10% less time to react - which is negligable - you should easily be able to pull your charging troops back. If you can't that's on you. The disadvantage in reaction time should be more significant the closer the artillery piece is, but I already explained in a previous post why this isn't an issue.

"By the time they get into combat they are usually dead" So you are admitting that the way you use stormtroopers is to ignore cover and just charge across open ground at the enemy frontline. I could have sworn I already stated this is NOT the way to use stormtroopers.

The damage curve of the engineer stens and the commando stens is VERY similar, in fact, the engineer stens have a more shallow damage curve then the commandos despite having a near range of 8 instead of 10. And yes, commando brens can be decent, but they are not very common. Perhaps in low level 3v3s and 4v4s they are seen more often.

Stormtroopers are decent at flanking because if you use them correctly they will not be spotted, unlike panzergrenadiers.

I don't know what to tell you if you actually think tactical advance "offers very little in capability". You can't be serious, it is one of the most powerful infantry abilities in the game.

If your observation is "most people fire from max range", I question the skill levels of the players you are observing.
If you are talking max range for say katyusha. 20 range is only 10% of their stock maximum range, so we are talking 10% better scatter and 10% quicker time on target. I don't know the exact numbers for travel time, but I can tell you that even with 10% less time to react - which is negligable - you should easily be able to pull your charging troops back. If you can't that's on you. The disadvantage in reaction time should be more significant the closer the artillery piece is, but I already explained in a previous post why this isn't an issue.

"By the time they get into combat they are usually dead" So you are admitting that the way you use stormtroopers is to ignore cover and just charge across open ground at the enemy frontline. I could have sworn I already stated this is NOT the way to use stormtroopers.

The damage curve of the engineer stens and the commando stens is VERY similar, in fact, the engineer stens have a more shallow damage curve then the commandos despite having a near range of 8 instead of 10. And yes, commando brens can be decent, but they are not very common. Perhaps in low level 3v3s and 4v4s they are seen more often.

Stormtroopers are decent at flanking because if you use them correctly they will not be spotted, unlike panzergrenadiers.

I don't know what to tell you if you actually think tactical advance "offers very little in capability". You can't be serious, it is one of the most powerful infantry abilities in the game.

This is their most optimal engagement. They can still lose.

Royal engineers smgs literally do less than half the damage as commando smgs.

It is far from the most powerful ability. A grenade offers more damage.

This is their most optimal engagement. They can still lose.

Royal engineers smgs literally do less than half the damage as commando smgs.

It is far from the most powerful ability. A grenade offers more damage.

Sure, and panzergrenadiers can lose to conscripts at mid range. It happens. Now repeat that test with a more accurate representation of stormtrooper use.
Have a squad of rifles advancing on cloaked stormtroopers in cover, have the stormtroopers pop tactical advance once the rifles are at 10 meters, and give the rifles a second or two reaction delay to simulate the surprise factor.


And Pioneer smgs do less than half the damage of stormtrooper smgs, what's your point?


A grenade can be dodged, a grenade is less reliable at securing wipes on retreating troop, grenade requires the unit to be stationary for the throw animation. Powerful is not just how much upfront damage can be done. If that were the case, then the railway artillery would be one of the strongest off maps in the game, and propaganda artillery one of the weakest.

...

Think AEgion has a valid point since ST MP-40 sort of overlap with PG with camo. The main difference being the ability to infiltrate.

They could be redesigned to offer something different.

4 men CQB unit is not a good design to begin with.

Sure, and panzergrenadiers can lose to conscripts at mid range. It happens. Now repeat that test with a more accurate representation of stormtrooper use.
Have a squad of rifles advancing on cloaked stormtroopers in cover, have the stormtroopers pop tactical advance once the rifles are at 10 meters, and give the rifles a second or two reaction delay to simulate the surprise factor.


And Pioneer smgs do less than half the damage of stormtrooper smgs, what's your point?


A grenade can be dodged, a grenade is less reliable at securing wipes on retreating troop, grenade requires the unit to be stationary for the throw animation. Powerful is not just how much upfront damage can be done. If that were the case, then the railway artillery would be one of the strongest off maps in the game, and propaganda artillery one of the weakest.

A hypothetical scenario that may only happen once a match that involves an opponent that does nothing that would require a heavy amount of map influence to actually hope that this scenario would occur.

As mentioned before with issues with pioneers and look we went full circle were the Stormtroopers lack identity.

A grenade dodge reduced damage output especially if they are carrying non firing lmgs. Even a miss grenade does a lot of damage thanks to free damage the squad can inflict. Propaganda is one of the strongest, and it deals no damage.

A hypothetical scenario that may only happen once a match that involves an opponent that does nothing that would require a heavy amount of map influence to actually hope that this scenario would occur.

As mentioned before with issues with pioneers and look we went full circle were the Stormtroopers lack identity.

A grenade dodge reduced damage output especially if they are carrying non firing lmgs. Even a miss grenade does a lot of damage thanks to free damage the squad can inflict. Propaganda is one of the strongest, and it deals no damage.

Actually this scenario can occur far more then you seem to believe. You use the stormtrooper for capping or decapping the enemy cutoff, fuel or victory point, and then plop it there a minute or two for the inevitable recap. This is not an uncommon tactic with ambush units.

You claim that pioneers and stormtroopers overlap, but somehow royal engineers and commandos don't. You mentioned commandos can get brens, well so can royal engineers, albeit weaker variants just like pios have weaker mp40s then stormtroopers. As already mentioned, conscripts and combat engineers is far more egregious in this regard, yet nobody is complaining about how those two have literally identical weapons.


If your goal is just to force the enemy to reposition, incendiary grenades do just as good a job as standard ones, except that incendiary grenades can deny buildings while regular grenades wont.

Actually this scenario can occur far more then you seem to believe. You use the stormtrooper for capping or decapping the enemy cutoff, fuel or victory point, and then plop it there a minute or two for the inevitable recap. This is not an uncommon tactic with ambush units.

You claim that pioneers and stormtroopers overlap, but somehow royal engineers and commandos don't. You mentioned commandos can get brens, well so can royal engineers, albeit weaker variants just like pios have weaker mp40s then stormtroopers. As already mentioned, conscripts and combat engineers is far more egregious in this regard, yet nobody is complaining about how those two have literally identical weapons.


If your goal is just to force the enemy to reposition, incendiary grenades do just as good a job as standard ones, except that incendiary grenades can deny buildings while regular grenades wont.

Then ambush camouflage would do the same thing for pgrens, probably better with their better range.

As I said, Pioneers need a damage buff, thus lack of identity. Royal engineers have a better target size and have a non-doctrinal size increase.

Bundle grenades would, again Pgrens do the same job but better.

That was a counter argument removed from context.

Ok, fine. You want stormtroopers to have an extra man. I do not think they should get an extra man because this would compromise their identity as an elite ambush unit; they would not need to hide to be effective and would resemble a general-purpose assault unit.

Stormtroopers already have better received accuracy on paper than panzergrenadiers, although the veterancy progression is different. And German Infantry doctrine already gives you five-man squads for when durability is critical. And stormtroopers performing ambushes should mostly be avoiding hits from things like tanks and rocket artillery that don't care about received accuracy.

But if stormtroopers actually do need a durability buff, they should get something that makes them extra durable without having more men. Stormtroopers' small squad size visually reinforces the idea that they are a stealthy ambush unit that surprise the enemy to avoid taking damage. Giving them five men weakens their identity.

...
But if stormtroopers actually do need a durability buff, they should get something that makes them extra durable without having more men. Stormtroopers' small squad size visually reinforces the idea that they are a stealthy ambush unit that surprise the enemy to avoid taking damage. Giving them five men weakens their identity.

Problem is that CQB with 4 entities and spread DPS are not good. If they drop a model early their loose too much DPS.

In addition they can easily be killed when retreat from behind enemy lines where they are supposed to operate.

By comparison Commandos that are also an "ambush" unit have 5 entities and drop smoke on retreat with vet.

If stormtroopers deserve a buff, so do partisans, or you could just Learn to use them in their intended role.

If stormtroopers deserve a buff, so do partisans, or you could just Learn to use them in their intended role.

Partisan do need a rework. What I have been saying is that stormtrooper's intended is overshadows and outclassed as well as that they are poorly designed.