Making OKW Battlegroup viable

.. However, one thing we could do is to make their tech less rigid so that it's easier to back-tech. Getting Battlegroup for just an ISG or healing is ridiculously expensive at 40-55 fuel. So what could be done is splitting up the Battlegroup like what was done with USF's middle techs;...

The creation of a need to OKW tech changes was pointed out when the USF tech revamp went forward.

If one goes down that road one will probably have to nerf these units as one has to do with USF units because these factions where designed to be played with a limited roster and units that are OP because of it.

The trend of making powerful unit available earlier is messing with pace of the game and this start to show. Many unit unit are cost efficient but do not get used simply because their window of opportunity is to small.

Imo you should start delaying many unit and increase the window of opportunity for unit give return for their investment.

In the case of OKW one could try lowering the cost for setting up T2 so that one can have access to faust at the same time but delay vehicles by locking them behind tech like repair engineers. That would also require similar adjustments to allied vehicles also.

As for changes to the cost of Battle group I would suggest replacing the medic tech with reinforcement. The BG could come with healing but without reinforcement that could become as an upgrade of bundled with FRP.

The creation of a need to OKW tech changes was pointed out when the USF tech revamp went forward.

Then you will have to nerf these units as one has to do with USF units because these factions where designed to be played with a limited roster and units that are OP because of it.

The trend of making powerful unit available earlier is messing with pace of the game and this start to show. Many unit unit are cost efficient but do not get used simply because their window of opportunity is to small.

So what's the problem?
OKW will need to be nerfed at the end, its precisely what you suggest in every balance thread - nerfs.
You'll finally get what you constantly advocate for and you're still unhappy?

Imo you should start delaying many unit and increase the window of opportunity for unit give return for their investment.

In the case of OKW one could try lowering the cost for setting up T2 so that one can have access to faust at the same time but delay vehicles by locking them behind tech like repair engineers. That would also require similar adjustments to allied vehicles also.

That lowers window of opportunity for M3 and WC51.

You can't "increase window of opportunity" by decreasing it for other units.

For someone who tried to berate ME on importance of timing, you seem to be completely oblivious to what changes like that would inflict on balance.

Another constructive thread derailed by Vipper and Katitof. RIP.

What doesn't make any sense about this thread is that OKW went mechanized and Axis still got absolutely deleted in UTT2. OKW is just too weak in general and it's not because of teching but because Infantry Sections, Riflemen and Conscripts all got buffed recently while OKW got less MP to start.

+2

Both battletrucks tech divisions would be a very good idea. It could add some flexibility to the faction.

Another constructive thread derailed by Vipper and Katitof. RIP.

What doesn't make any sense about this thread is that OKW went mechanized and Axis still got absolutely deleted in UTT2. OKW is just too weak in general and it's not because of teching but because Infantry Sections, Riflemen and Conscripts all got buffed recently while OKW got less MP to start.

Oh yeah, all these riflemen wrecking axis in the tournament.

Also, it doesn't matter how weak or strong your infantry is, you WILL be wiped by rocket arty and extremely conservative play and lack of pushing when you are holding the advantage.

Have you even watched the games or just hear that allies won finals and are ranting off of that?

Most of the games were extremely close, proving balance is good and better players won.

Another constructive thread

Imagine believing OKW will get buffed.

We've tried minor changes to try to nudge Battlegroup a bit more in the right direction, however even though it has seen a bit more use, Mechanized still remains dominant in 1v1s and 2v2s.

How lovely that 1 of these tiers has an absolute necessity to playing coh2 (healing) and you still wanna have players pick one or the other tier. So basically we're stuck with a shit tier with an absolute essential element (healing) and a good tier that locks you out of mines because you have to waste all your munitions healing.

I really wonder why OKW is UP...

So purely for speculation (chance to get bigger changes implemented becomes ever smaller) here's my opinion on this: nothing will change the dominance of the Puma in the teching choice (in those two game modes). Mechanized will always stay meta with OKW's current faction roster and tech layout. However, one thing we could do is to make their tech less rigid so that it's easier to back-tech. Getting Battlegroup for just an ISG or healing is ridiculously expensive at 40-55 fuel. So what could be done is splitting up the Battlegroup like what was done with USF's middle techs;
- Cost of Battlegroup from 200/25 to ~50/5;
- Now only unlocks the medic upgrade (still 100/15, maybe move it down to 10) and the ISG;
- Add upgrade for 150/20 that unlocks reinforcing, the Flak HT, the Uhu and access to the FRP upgrade;
- T4 and Tiger II require a fully upgraded Battlegroup.

That would significantly reduce the cost of backteching for indirect fire and healing (from 370/40-55 to 120/20-220-35) which is more in line with other factions. It also has the added benefit of making the ISG available significantly faster which would help OKW on garrison or lane heavy maps (mostly in teamgames) where their early game is really bad against HMGs.

That could work. But i (2vs2 mostly) just dont see why someone would backtech. The isg doesnt offer that much besides smoke and dies vs rocket arty (imo one of the reasons why usf didnt get picked too much). Your ost teammate can provide you cheap healing and the aa of the flak ht is probably inferior to the 222s.
People will still go for puma into stuka into panther. And then the only reason to backtech is the KT.
But maybe in 1vs1 the cheaper healing could help some players.

But maybe in 1vs1 the cheaper healing could help some players.

Yep imo

That could work. But i (2vs2 mostly) just dont see why someone would backtech. The isg doesnt offer that much besides smoke and dies vs rocket arty (imo one of the reasons why usf didnt get picked too much). Your ost teammate can provide you cheap healing

It could save Ostheer some vital early/mid game resources, and a backteched ISG could help OKW especially against UKF because it's good against Infantry Sections and against the mortar pit. There would usually be plenty of time to use it before Allies get rocket artillery.

I'm not saying it would magically cure all of OKW's problems, because it wouldn't. But we can't radically change their faction design. It'd be better than nothing.

The healing tech should be cheaper.

Another constructive thread derailed by Vipper and Katitof. RIP.
What doesn't make any sense about this thread is that OKW went mechanized and Axis still got absolutely deleted in UTT2. OKW is just too weak in general and it's not because of teching but because Infantry Sections, Riflemen and Conscripts all got buffed recently while OKW got less MP to start.

I agree with you that OKW is relatively / too weak. That being said I think we should separate the discussion about the BG and the discussion about the general power level of the faction and focus in this thread on the BG rework.

Maybe taking some power lvl from mechanized could help Battlegroup Headquarters.
You could move stuka from mech HQ to Schwerer Panzer HQ. Instead of stuka mech HQ now has the Mortar HT from Ostheer. And additionally you could move Obers from Schwerer HQ to Command HQ. They get unlocked after 1 tech structure was built (like mg34, lmg still requires panzer authorization).

Now you can skip mech and still get rocket arty. On the other hand you still need it for the puma. Obers have a better timing (should be around 2/3cp like other elite inf).

So based on UTT are we also planning to buff sov T1, because it was never played, or buff USF because they were picked once in a blue moon and lost every match?

Meta is different in different gamemodes. Something that's amazing in 1v1 may not be that good in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. How often do you see ISU152 or Elefant doc in 1v1? I just don't think it is possible to make all teching paths equally effective across all gamemodes.

So based on UTT are we also planning to buff sov T1, because it was never played, or buff USF because they were picked once in a blue moon and lost every match?

Meta is different in different gamemodes. Something that's amazing in 1v1 may not be that good in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4. How often do you see ISU152 or Elefant doc in 1v1? I just don't think it is possible to make all teching paths equally effective across all gamemodes.

U are right but it is important to remember that axis is OP

You could move obers to battlegroup but lock nades and MG until flak gun

I would agree with others stuka is too good for its timing, it messes up 4s balance a lot when one guy just goes early stuka

my suggestion would be to maybe allow the puma to be unlocked in the BGH and the leigh to be unlocked in the MHQ for like 30-40% of their orginal price + a duration

this could help to provide some much needed diversity for OKW build orders, while not getting rid of some, now, core faction weaknesses such as the lack of healing or the ability to get a stuka without having the required tech

if anything make the FRP in the BHQ more viable, or just give everything related in the BGH an overall cost reduction and maybe buff leighs to actually kill something from time to time

imo one okw rushes stuka is because the leigh has literally 0 wipe potential and okw in general has trouble wiping squads, so a stuka is pretty much needed to cause any indirect bleed for okw and kill the allied ATG wall or mgs

the result of the heavy t2 play is tho that okw t4 is heavily delayed resulting in a bad timing for late game tanks or simply a bad late game

what axis or okw needs is any form of gaining momentum, the puma doesnt give momentum, its basically a tool required for axis to stay alive

Maybe taking some power lvl from mechanized could help Battlegroup Headquarters.
You could move stuka from mech HQ to Schwerer Panzer HQ. Instead of stuka mech HQ now has the Mortar HT from Ostheer. And additionally you could move Obers from Schwerer HQ to Command HQ. They get unlocked after 1 tech structure was built (like mg34, lmg still requires panzer authorization).

Now you can skip mech and still get rocket arty. On the other hand you still need it for the puma. Obers have a better timing (should be around 2/3cp like other elite inf).

I like this idea; maybe combined with the luchs and flak ht trade.