UTT and the 2v2 meta - already stale?

Here are my 2 cents about the first 2 rounds of the UTT. I will come back to some of the topics that were already discussed and add some additional thoughs:

The Mortar Pit's Reign of Terror
I'm really surprised that nobody brought up the recent balance changes to explain why the emplacements are a lot harder to deal with.
Winter balance patch
LE.IG/Mortar Half-Track Incendiary Barrage

The DOT against emplacements has been slightly reduced. Previously a full salvo would almost kill an emplacement if it was at full health.

DOT Incendiary +25% against Commonwealth Emplacement tag removed.
Brings DOT damage per tick versus defenses from 4.67 to 3.75

The best way to deal with emplacements were significantly nerfed. One of the few reasons to pick "Firestorm" was the incendiary shells for leigs that could deal pretty good damage to emplacements. Now the incendiary ammo- useless against almost anything else- is also bad against emplacements. The nerf was just too hard and a bad decision.

Lack of Axis Adaptation
If people want to know why OKW players dont build LE.IGs please look above. Besides that Doomlord summarized the problems of the mortar pit pretty good:
We're (essentially) back at the pre-nerf brace problem. While the mortar pit is counter-able, the amount of effort and resources required is massively disproportionate, and that over-investment leaves axis open to attacks from other units.

An axis team without a Puma is super vulnerable. Choose if you want to get punished by a T-70 or the mortar pit...

Allied Team Composition: Brits and Soviets
Players who have to play Allies in the tourney have the luxury to pick between 3 factions that are pretty good. Soviets are a no brainer and Brits are super strong (op), players did choose USF not because the faction is bad but the other 2 allied factions are even stronger.

Wolfheze is no tourney map!
Base volleys from Kathy / Landmatrasses from the mid of the map without fearing damage are ridiculous, period. To include the map in the map was a mistake, please take it out for the elite eight weekend.

The rise of German infantry
The doctrine was picked pretty often in the tourney. The reasons are imo:
- Tiger doctrines not attractive enough after the nerfs to the Tiger
(Btw can anyone show me a game where a TigerI made a difference?)
- Heavy Panzer corps needed because of Werfers.
- 5 man Gren squads, no explanation needed...

Weak OKW commanders
OP Specops is gone, OP Tiger is gone and suddenly its pretty obvious that OKW commanders are pretty mediocre. Look at the doctrinal tanks:
- Ostwind and Hetzer are in bad doctrines and come too late
- JT is a joke compared to SU-152
- ST trash as always (how often is the AVRE used in comparison...)

I still think the nerfs to Specops and Grand Offensive were good decisions. The problem is that most OKW commanders are now inferior to allied meta commanders. And its easy to explain: There are very few allied meta commanders (Im only talking about 2v2, I know that problematic commanders for 1v1 were nerfed) that got justified nerfs in the last years. Look no further than UK's Royal artillery and soviet commanders like Mech. Assault or Mechanized Support.

Hopes for the finals
- no Wolfheze, Axis players are no canon fodder
(In the finals of the UTT qualifying rounds, the Allied teams won 14/19 games.)

A personal note
Im happy for CN and Seeking and I will cross my fingers for them. Would be really cool to see fresh faces at the top of the mountain. And yes, there were some really nice tourney games so far (despite the problems) and I will probably watch the tourney again.
But I have to admit that I did not enjoy the UTT as much as the other 2v2 tourneys before and the main reasons are Wolfheze and the axis inferiority.

apart from buffing or nerfing units

my suggestion would be to maybe allow the puma to be unlocked in the BGH and the leigh to be unlocked in the MHQ for like 30-40% of their orginal price + a duration

this could help to provide some much needed diversity for OKW build orders, while not getting rid of some, now, core faction weaknesses such as the lack of healing or the ability to get a stuka without having the required tech

regardless i still find it hilarious that ostheer has to build a 2nd med bunker for OKW while allied healing options are basically straight out of the door

Here are my 2 cents about the first 2 rounds of the UTT. I will come back to some of the topics that were already discussed and add some additional thoughs:

The Mortar Pit's Reign of Terror
I'm really surprised that nobody brought up the recent balance changes to explain why the emplacements are a lot harder to deal with.
Winter balance patch
LE.IG/Mortar Half-Track Incendiary Barrage

The DOT against emplacements has been slightly reduced. Previously a full salvo would almost kill an emplacement if it was at full health.

DOT Incendiary +25% against Commonwealth Emplacement tag removed.
Brings DOT damage per tick versus defenses from 4.67 to 3.75

The best way to deal with emplacements were significantly nerfed. One of the few reasons to pick "Firestorm" was the incendiary shells for leigs that could deal pretty good damage to emplacements. Now the incendiary ammo- useless against almost anything else- is also bad against emplacements. The nerf was just too hard and a bad decision.

I'd forgotten about this change. It also significantly reduced the mortar halftrack's effectiveness, so I don't expect this unit to be a saving grace for Axis.

As an aside, one unit I'd like to see be explored a bit more is the artillery field officer. His mortar barrage could be pretty useful for nuking the pit and his synergy with panzerwerfers is great. He comes in a commander with an elephant too.

I'd forgotten about this change. It also significantly reduced the mortar halftrack's effectiveness, so I don't expect this unit to be a saving grace for Axis.

As an aside, one unit I'd like to see be explored a bit more is the artillery field officer. His mortar barrage could be pretty useful for nuking the pit and his synergy with panzerwerfers is great. He comes in a commander with an elephant too.

Sadly there is no commander with arty officer and the elephant. Assault Support combines the Arty Officer and the TigerI.

Besides that I like the Arty officer a lot and I think it suffers from being in mediocre doctrines. I would love to see it in OKW's Firestorm (replacing the incediary shells) or as stock unit in the Battlegroup HQ.

whoops yeah I'm getting my strings crossed

The balance imo, is mostly fine at the moment. In a vacuum, Brits, Soviets, USF and Ost are well balanced.

The problem is when you start combining them, especially in the case of Soviets/Brits. The power spike of both factions complement each other to perfection. As Axis, you're catching up from the first moment.

The UC is an absolute stupid unit, that if well microed, is incredibly hard to counter. Even if you rush the 222 to kill it, you'll have about 30 seconds before the AEC shuts down any light vehicle play. That forces the OKW player to get a Puma, but if you can't kill the AEC, the Brit player is more likely than not to call in a Valentine. If you then add the T70 to the mix, you're already very hard pressed to find counters. Especially considering the state of Grens and Volks compared to Allied main lines (all of which have been buffed in recent patches to make them compete with Volks. And please don't bring up Gren buffs, they were superficial at best).

There's other problems too. Both Axis and Allies have cheese units, but I think Allies have an easier time countering Axis cheese, than Axis do Allies. For example, the only way to counter an ISU is with an Elefant. And while the Elefant is strong, it is countered by any doctrine that has IL2 bombing or rocket strike. I don't even have to mention Perimeter Overwatch.

Finally, there's some issues that just weren't addressed at any point. OKW was crutching on CPanther or Tiger for years now. Now that both are nerfed, the wheels have come off. And as mentioned above, all Allied infantry has been buffed to compete with Volks - leaving Grens in the shit spot they're in right now.

The best way to deal with emplacements were significantly nerfed. One of the few reasons to pick "Firestorm" was the incendiary shells for leigs that could deal pretty good damage to emplacements. Now the incendiary ammo- useless against almost anything else- is also bad against emplacements. The nerf was just too hard and a bad decision.

I tested this change and it was a minor nerf which barely made an impact on the average total damage caused by an incendiary barrage. Potential damage to an unbraced pit went from like 90% to 70-80%, and damage against a braced one from 60-70% to 50-60%, which still effectively means two barrages to kill one (one to force brace, second to finish it). The only things that really changed are that the UKF player now has a small chance to repair their mortar pit in between the barrages to try to save it (but there's only 15 seconds on the recharge), and that one incendiary barrage can no longer reliably kill almost the entirety of an unbraced mortar pit in one go (which was way too cost effective).

This is the result of one updated incendiary barrage on an unbraced mortar pit in the FOW at max range:


This is the result of one updated incendiary barrage on a braced (just before impact of the first shell) mortar pit in the FOW at max range:


TLDR the barrage went from incredibly potent against emplacements to slightly less incredibly potent against emplacements. Effective Time To Kill or Cost To Kill (2 barrages) did not change outside of rare occasions of bad RNG or the UKF player being absolutely on point with brace and repairs (and the OKW not following up with the second barrage in time).


Furthermore the barrage is very powerful against garrisons (since we fixed the damage against tall garrisons) and is very effective at forcing team weapons out of a certain area in advance or in support of a push.

Very helpful visualisation, thanks.

snip

But its not one click to destroy the thing, therefore its completely ineffective softcounter not even worth consideREEEEEing!

Show Spoiler

Now if only at least either Battlegroup or Firestorm were viable at a even remotely high level...

Wolfheze always been a shit map. It was kind of sad to see it come back

I tested this change and it was a minor nerf which barely made an impact on the average total damage caused by an incendiary barrage. Potential damage to an unbraced pit went from like 90% to 70-80%, and damage against a braced one from 60-70% to 50-60%, which still effectively means two barrages to kill one (one to force brace, second to finish it). The only things that really changed are that the UKF player now has a small chance to repair their mortar pit in between the barrages to try to save it (but there's only 15 seconds on the recharge), and that one incendiary barrage can no longer reliably kill almost the entirety of an unbraced mortar pit in one go (which was way too cost effective).

HI Sander,
thx for your post and the clarification! People like you that convince other with facts are the only reason why I still post here and there on this forum.

Brits as a whole are cancer design.

Best standard infantry in the game with the most efficient upgrades (5 men, Double Brens) and a cancerous cover bonus.

Best lategame tanks with a non doctrinal Tiger or super HP Churchills.

And emplacement cancer - although nerfed - plays into this. It's way easier to screen your mortar pit when your infantry basically can't be pushed away once in cover.

It's beyond good design to buff the most cancerous faction in the game while hardly buffign the weakest one that depends on combined arms (Ost). And that shit can be seen in the current meta. Game lost a lot of quality since Brits are meta again.

On top of that the Tiger is out of the game, leaving Ost with no good meatshield tank. AI almost instantly switched to the Brummbär.

So the Mortar pit is OP because the AUG in CS:GO became OP.

Quality

You just totaly missed his point...

This tournament was just a mess.

Everyone farted rocket arty out their ass like it was Christmas morning.

Every time a infantry showed up, he was instantly bombarded to death.

And you can´t even counter rocket artillery cause the maps dont allow it.

What a joke.

This tournament was just a mess.

Everyone farted rocket arty out their ass like it was Christmas morning.

Every time a infantry showed up, he was instantly bombarded to death.

And you can´t even counter rocket artillery cause the maps dont allow it.

What a joke.

Well, it also proved that if allies do not have brits in team, they get roflstomped badly
Pit not op, pit only thing that keeps balance in the force

The only real counter for mortar pit suggested here is the Mortar HT. If you think the only counter for 400 MP nondoctrinal unit is a doctrinal unit, you are already admitting that Mortar pit is OP.

The only real counter for mortar pit suggested here is the Mortar HT. If you think the only counter for 400 MP nondoctrinal unit is a doctrinal unit, you are already admitting that Mortar pit is OP.

Yeah we saw how OP the mortar pit was today.

my problem with emplacements always has been and always will be, that its just no skill based at any level. you place an immovable object somewhere and the AI will do the rest. no micro no nothing

my problem with emplacements always has been and always will be, that its just no skill based at any level. you place an immovable object somewhere and the AI will do the rest. no micro no nothing

That's actually completely wrong in the case of the mortar pit. You constantly have to guard it, you have to place it in the right spot, you have to know if you can put one down or not, etc.

Most mortar pits in automatch 2v2 end up a bad investment because people put them down without being able to defend them. Then they have to retreat to base once and the mortar pit dies instantly because all it takes is one flame grenade and a raketenwerfer to kill it fast now that brace has been nerfed. I would argue that normal mortars are much easier and safer to use than mortar pits. So yes mortar pits do take skill to use effectively.