Assault Grenadier spam - every, single, game. What gives?

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 14:04 PMDarkpiatre

Well I think to problem is more the power of the Thompson Upgrade which is incredible, according to https://coh2db.com/stats/#, close range (lower than 10), Thompson (took from rangers squad since they are 5 man squad) has 24 DPS while de MP40 has 15, plus the MP40 has bigger reload time and smaller burst. For comparison, a squad of Panzergrenadier with STG44 has only 15 DPS close range.

While this upgrade was only on paratroopers/rangers/assault guard there was no problem because it's performance fit the elite-infantry role, but such upgrade is now on Assault section (UKF) which are the british counterpart of Assaultgren and therefore outscale them hard.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 14:04 PMDarkpiatre

Well I think to problem is more the power of the Thompson Upgrade which is incredible, according to https://coh2db.com/stats/#, close range (lower than 10), Thompson (took from rangers squad since they are 5 man squad) has 24 DPS while de MP40 has 15, plus the MP40 has bigger reload time and smaller burst. For comparison, a squad of Panzergrenadier with STG44 has only 15 DPS close range.

While this upgrade was only on paratroopers/rangers/assault guard there was no problem because it's performance fit the elite-infantry role, but such upgrade is now on Assault section (UKF) which are the british counterpart of Assaultgren and therefore outscale them hard.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 14:13 PMSerrith

Im fairly sure the thompson upgrade only gives 2 thompsons instead of kitting the whole squad so not really a fair comparison there. All the DPS calculations on Coh2db factor in reload and burst.

You are also comparing the max vet thompson to the vet 0 panzergrenadier stg which is misleading since the PGren stg has 23 dps at max vet. The para Thompson has 18.4 dps at vet 0(not 24).

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 15:00 PMDarkpiatre

Oups my bad, I tried to overlap those 2 but apparently failed.
The point is that STG DPS start with lower value and drop faster than thompson (starting from 5 range which is strange but ok). Same system was applied to PPSH/MP 40 but has lower DPS from the get go to compensate.IMO the problem lies here.

And yes the kit gives 2 thompsons, but with the approximation that Sten=MP40, my idea remain the same.

But I don't know which "thompson" is given to AS.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 15:11 PMVipper

Main difference between Ranges/PAras Thompson and MP40 is the high DPS of Thompson at MID range which closer to that of an assault rifle.

Although some SMGs like shocks PPsh have also seen the MID DPS increase.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 15:35 PMDarkpiatre

regarding to the curve of the PPsh, if the starting point is lower, increasing it's midrange DPS doesn't make it quite comparable to the thompson and therefore is not a big issue.

I don't know if STG is a bit weak or Thompson a bit too powerfull, but IMO the ratio between these 2 shows the problem among CQ units and "Assault unit".
The difference between submachine gun (MP40,Thompson,sten,PPsh) / Assault Rifle (Bar,STG44) / LMG (mg42,bren,M19..) in terme of DPS Curve isn't clear.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 14:12 PMVipper

there are at least 3 versions of the Thompson:
One for officers
One for Cav riflemen
One for Ranger/paras

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 16:13 PMSander93

There's only two, Cavalry Riflemen use the Paratrooper Thompson.
They just get two of them rather than four.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 15:53 PMVipper

The carbine was already a great weapon at all ranges so Relic buffed "elite" Thompson profile at mid range so that it was a downgrade from the carbine.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 15:35 PMDarkpiatre

regarding to the curve of the PPsh, if the starting point is lower, increasing it's midrange DPS doesn't make it quite comparable to the thompson and therefore is not a big issue.

I don't know if STG is a bit weak or Thompson a bit too powerfull, but IMO the ratio between these 2 shows the problem among CQ units and "Assault unit".
The difference between submachine gun (MP40,Thompson,sten,PPsh) / Assault Rifle (Bar,STG44) / LMG (mg42,bren,M19..) in terme of DPS Curve isn't clear.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 13:24 PMSerrith

What a coincidence, assault grenadiers DID receive a similar buff to rifles.

Wehrmacht - Strategic Reserves

Assault Grenadiers
.....

MP40 Changes

MP 40s are having their mid-range power increased to match SMGs like the M3 Grease gun used by Assault Engineers. This change also affects Assault Officer and Volksgrenadier MP 40s, but not other MP40 variants.

MP 40 Mid range cooldown from 1.25 to 1
MP 40 Mid accuracy from 0.24 to 0.375
MP40 reload frequency from 4/5 to 6
MP40 reload from 2.8/3.5 to 2.8



Essentially you have an increase of about 40% DPS at range 17. Rifle buff was an increase to near range of 3 which increased their dps at range 6 by about 10%, dropping off as it reaches the midrange of 16(shorter then the mp40).

Combined with the stock buff to RA+a previous buff to vet RA, and reduction in reinforcement cost, assault grenadiers have been solidified as a very decent early game CQC squad.
And yes, like most other SMG infantry, they do fall off in the late game, though the 6man upgrade does help them scale and retain their usefulness more then most other SMG infantry.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 08:56 AMachpawel

Can't agree here I'm afraid. They received pseudo-buff. The buff is meant to make them more viable lategame,

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 18:22 PMSerrith

Well I wouldnt say PGrens are dedicated close range, the damage curve of the (pgren)StG implies medium range specialist. If you compare it to the thompson, you'll notice that while the Thompson has an edge out to around range 16, the STG has the edge from there to max range. Between the two, that long range capability makes the StG far more ubiquitous and a superior weapon if you could equip a bunch of squads with either.

While the Thompson does have a better damage curve and dps then the MP40, it exists on units with either a limited number of them(assault IS, cav rifles) or exists on expensive elite infantry coupled with a hefty upgrade cost.

I think both have a decent place at the moment, and if the mp40 is underpowered or the Thompson is overpowered, it's only by a very small margin if at all.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 19:05 PMSkysTheLimit

No they also recieved other buffs, as Serrith pointed out to you. Ass grens are fine

They are meant to be strong early and fall off late. That's how they're designed

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 19:22 PMachpawel

I understand. Still, a much better buff would be a snare that could carry them lategame by simply making the ost player not needing to buy regular grens.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 19:22 PMachpawel

Sometimes players just want to get rid of them because they need a snare unit rather than an early game cqc unit that will lose against elite squads or vetted/upgraded mainlines lategame anyway.

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 19:28 PMSkysTheLimit

That is a HUGE buff and there's no reason for it. Vehicles are a main counter to ass grens and you want to change that completely

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 19:28 PMSkysTheLimit

Then don't build assgrens. The entire point is for you to make a tactical choice. It's your job to make their early game strength pay off

Jump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 17:23 PMVipper

My mistake, I guess I assumed that if one would go into the trouble of creating a weapon profile called "cavalry_m1_thompson_mp" one would actually use that profile for unit called cavalry riflemen.