Pioneers after early game

Or maybe the teller mine? The best mine any engineer can place? The bonus vision?

You keep leaving out the fact that they can kill light tanks with a single well placed mine, that's pretty useful

I'm with you if you wanna lower pio vet requirements. If you're gonna say they don't have enough compared to CEs, then i have to disagree. A lot

While it's true that the teller can be awesome, Soviets don't have to stare down the barrel of a t70. If ostheer had a comparable vehicle I'd be happy to say goodbye to tellers

While it's true that the teller can be awesome, Soviets don't have to stare down the barrel of a t70. If ostheer had a comparable vehicle I'd be happy to say goodbye to tellers

Teller does more than 1 hit ko t70s. Having a "vehicle only" mine in the first place is already a nice bonus

Teller does more than 1 hit ko t70s. Having a "vehicle only" mine in the first place is already a nice bonus

I'm aware of that. I figured since we were talking about CEs I'd go over soviets.

I'm aware of that. I figured since we were talking about CEs I'd go over soviets.

Soviets fight against OKW as well who have plenty of light vehicles

I think the respective costs of the two squads is fine atm. Do you disagree?

but they dont have antiinfantry mines, mines arent combat stuff

but they dont have antiinfantry mines, mines arent combat stuff

What are smines then? Anti air mines?

True and merge also becomes more risky later on when tanks arrive. They can reguraly kill 2 models and in some cases just before you merge and cost you the cons squad. But that limited to in combat. For recrewing its really good when you get 7th man.

4 to 7 mp more per model is imo not gamebreaking. It takes seconds to gain that amount of mp. The mp soviets save with merge and cheaper reinforcing goes into replacing vehicles wich for the most part get destroyed easier/faster then axis tanks. This comes from 1v1 perspective ofcourse.

In my experience in the late game pio's just as ce's are not priorities to focus fire on mostly. Only with flamers or when repairing they are and they both will melt away when you do so.

The fact combat merge isnt used as much later on doesnt detract from its(powerful) utility early game.
In the late game, cost saving merge like we used to see more often with guards when they were 35(?) MP to reinforce is going to be more common. Using 7 man cons to speed up reinforcing and save on costs can net you 9mp saved per squad reinforced plus a faster return to the battle field for repairs and minesweeping.
In this case the difference between reinforcing a pio or CE squad is up to 21mp and rarely do players only field a single pio or CE squad.
Even without using merge, you still have a 12mp difference in reinforce costs on a SINGLE squad, while there being no difference in durability of the models(unlike cons vs grens).
If 4-7mp per model werent a big deal then you might as well standardize all mainline infantry to 25mp reinforcement.

When you hear people talking about how going double sturmpioneers can result in heavy bleed for OKW, just consider that volks "only" cost 5 less to reinforce and have less durable models to boot. And if you dont think peniles bleed you harder than cons late game(and its noticeable) you must not have tried late game with peniles.



As for late game priorities, pios and CE might not be priorities as far as how dangerous they are, but if you want to bleed your opponent then you absolutely target them since neither gain any durability vet. The only difference is that CE can engage more effectively at safer ranges- and cost less to get back on the field.

What are smines then? Anti air mines?

smines are visible, like wtf

smines are visible, like wtf

Go ahead and explain why top players keep using them then.

Go ahead and explain why top players keep using them then.

Because you don't always pay attention, some people use tac map where they're not visible, enemies could run over them on retreat paths and if you don't have a sweeper nearby it effectively locks out a point.

s mines are anti infantry mines, Koniux probably meant schu mines.

Because you don't always pay attention, some people use tac map where they're not visible, enemies could run over them on retreat paths and if you don't have a sweeper nearby it effectively locks out a point.

s mines are anti infantry mines, Koniux probably meant schu mines.

exactly,
smines arent meant to kill anyone unless on retreat path, they just lock down points and require long sweeping time or a vehicle, and they do it for only 15munnies
they can kill if you sent the squad to cap with tacmap and dont know that theyre there
so if you know how to play this game you would know what i meant

anyway the point of this thread is not if pios have good utility
the poin is they have no combat usage after like 4-5min in the game while CEs are very useflull in mid game pios are trash and cost more, they just provide vision and sweep mines for 25mp cost

smines are visible, like wtf

yeah because they have a sign they dont count?

they either keep inf aways and need sweepers to join. If the territory is yours you keep it longer and can send your inf elsewhere and he needs his sweeper over there.
or the enemy doesnt pay attention and looses a bunch of models or the squad because despite being hit by mines they wont stop until they reach the destination. this as pointed out happens to people who use the tact map a lot to give orders. seen it happen to tightrope.

s mines are situational but far far from usseles.

yeah because they have a sign they dont count?

they either keep inf aways and need sweepers to join. If the territory is yours you keep it longer and can send your inf elsewhere and he needs his sweeper over there.
or the enemy doesnt pay attention and looses a bunch of models or the squad because despite being hit by mines they wont stop until they reach the destination. this as pointed out happens to people who use the tact map a lot to give orders. seen it happen to tightrope.

s mines are situational but far far from usseles.

WHEN HAVE I SAID THEY ARE USELESS
can you read

The fact combat merge isnt used as much later on doesnt detract from its(powerful) utility early game.
In the late game, cost saving merge like we used to see more often with guards when they were 35(?) MP to reinforce is going to be more common. Using 7 man cons to speed up reinforcing and save on costs can net you 9mp saved per squad reinforced plus a faster return to the battle field for repairs and minesweeping.
In this case the difference between reinforcing a pio or CE squad is up to 21mp and rarely do players only field a single pio or CE squad.
Even without using merge, you still have a 12mp difference in reinforce costs on a SINGLE squad, while there being no difference in durability of the models(unlike cons vs grens).
If 4-7mp per model werent a big deal then you might as well standardize all mainline infantry to 25mp reinforcement.

When you hear people talking about how going double sturmpioneers can result in heavy bleed for OKW, just consider that volks "only" cost 5 less to reinforce and have less durable models to boot. And if you dont think peniles bleed you harder than cons late game(and its noticeable) you must not have tried late game with peniles.



As for late game priorities, pios and CE might not be priorities as far as how dangerous they are, but if you want to bleed your opponent then you absolutely target them since neither gain any durability vet. The only difference is that CE can engage more effectively at safer ranges- and cost less to get back on the field.

i am not sure how i gave the empression merge is bad at any point of the game. i only said its more risky later on when tanks show up and you try to merge in combat like in the early game. 7th man reduces the likelyhood you loose the squad during merge but it can still happen.

merge is the soviet way of forward reinforcing next to the halftrack, where all other faction can build something. the soviet reinforce point needs to retreat to be able to do it again unike all other reinforce options. Yes you have the stronger squad say guards or penals or weapon team faster or longer on the field at the expense of the field presence of the conscript squad. having a reinforce building wich does not need to resuply models evens this out imo. its asymetry at its best imo.

and if you make all reinforce cost the same you should make the squad size the same. either 6 or 4 men doesnt matter you will still have models of certain squad outpreform others when they suddenly have the same models. 6 con models wont be beating 6 grens model squads any time soon. 6 penals vs 6 pgrens will result in pgrens winning far more engagements. lets make obers 6 men and put them up against guards or para,s. i know how that will turn out.
The reinforce cost is a 1 model basis. 1 gren model is better then 1 con model thats why the gren model is 30 mp and the con model 20 mp. some squads mostly 4 men squads i believe have some justified discounts or otherwise they have absurd reinforce costs. to me personaly reinforce costs are well balanced atm.

As ce's can fight from safer distances their damage is also not very high at those safer distances. pio,s if and thats a big if they can get close or flank a team weapon it needs to go packing. vs just ce's alone they can afford to take some fire.
other then gaining vet pio's and ce's are fine as is.

WHEN HAVE I SAID THEY ARE USELESS
can you read

how am i to read THEY HAVE SIGNS WTF!!!!! then?

and if you make all reinforce cost the same you should make the squad size the same. either 6 or 4 men doesnt matter you will still have models of certain squad outpreform others when they suddenly have the same models. 6 con models wont be beating 6 grens model squads any time soon. 6 penals vs 6 pgrens will result in pgrens winning far more engagements. lets make obers 6 men and put them up against guards or para,s. i know how that will turn out.
The reinforce cost is a 1 model basis. 1 gren model is better then 1 con model thats why the gren model is 30 mp and the con model 20 mp. some squads mostly 4 men squads i believe have some justified discounts or otherwise they have absurd reinforce costs. to me personaly reinforce costs are well balanced atm.

I only mentioned having the same reinforce cost because you expressed disbelief that 4-7mp difference in reinforce costs would be a big deal since "It takes seconds to gain that amount of mp".

I think that a 4-7mp reinforce cost is pretty substantial, especially since you'll be using multiples of each of these units in every match you play-and given that the units the costs are associated with are bullet pinatas due to a lack of RA vet.

you merge only to CEs, svt conscripts and support weapons or to save the squad from wipe
otherwise you dont merge into any other squad and why would you field conscript and a penal

you merge only to CEs, svt conscripts and support weapons or to save the squad from wipe
otherwise you dont merge into any other squad and why would you field conscript and a penal

Merge when you have 7 man conscripts can actually be an extremely cost efficient way of bringing squads back to full HP. For example, if you have a guard squad down to 1 man at your base and you reinforce with your 7 man conscript, you save 45 manpower-plus it will get your guard back onto the field earlier then if you just reinforced it like normal (conscripts reinforce faster than guards).

The only squad I would still avoid doing something like that to is shocks, since the body armor on shock models is where their durability comes from-and cons don't have it.

Merge when you have 7 man conscripts can actually be an extremely cost efficient way of bringing squads back to full HP. For example, if you have a guard squad down to 1 man at your base and you reinforce with your 7 man conscript, you save 45 manpower-plus it will get your guard back onto the field earlier then if you just reinforced it like normal (conscripts reinforce faster than guards).

The only squad I would still avoid doing something like that to is shocks, since the body armor on shock models is where their durability comes from-and cons don't have it.

merging into any other squad i mentioned before will reduce their combat effectiveness and is just stupid to do

merging into any other squad i mentioned before will reduce their combat effectiveness and is just stupid to do

I disagree. It's a matter of cost benefit.
If you merge 7 man conscripts with guards, the models will have an RA of 1.09(vs 0.97) or 12% greater then guards do normally. HOWEVER, 7 man conscripts cost 18 to reinforce vs 27 for guards which is 33% less.

So its 12% lower durability, but 33% lower cost. That is absolutely cost efficient. Obviously if you are swimming in manpower you may as well just reinforce normally, but if you are trying to save on your MP at all, it is quite obvious that merging with 7 man conscripts is the way to go.