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Troop training feedback

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13 Nov 2013, 17:07 PM
#1
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

Hey,

My thoughts on troop training ability in the elite troops doctrine.

I feel this ability completely counters and breaks one of the core gameplay loops in COH2, it feels completely out of place.

Obtaining vet units is one of the primary goals in a MP match but with this new ability that system is now sidelined for a German player and reduces a fun and challenging element of MP.

This ability is far too powerful in a winning players hands, if a player has map control they can vet up their units and replace destroyed vet units so quickly that a chance of a comeback for a soviet player is very low. Natural turning points in games are now removed because of the ability to replace vet units so quickly.

It is especially horrid in 2v2,3v3,4v4 games where resources are far more abundant.

IMO this ability should be removed or be based on a units build cost, say 20%.

/end rant



13 Nov 2013, 17:41 PM
#2
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

Instant vet 3 grenadier.That is all.

Please make it 1-2 CP at least, so that it doesn't allow to steal map control early game.
13 Nov 2013, 17:42 PM
#3
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
For 20 fuel, its valid.

The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor.
Vet isnt that great anymore. 20 fuel however is a severe setback.

A single Maxim will deal with Vet infantry, as will they die just as fast to a mortar, as will a sniper vet even faster by depleting an even more expensive unit. Basically that Vet doesnt do jack shit for you except against infantry in a vacuum. It doesnt help you one bit vs anything else except small arms combat.

Yes, a single unit may be more effective, but at 20 fuel, its a bitter cost that bites you back, hard, as the game progresses.
13 Nov 2013, 17:59 PM
#4
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:07 PMwuff
Hey,

My thoughts on troop training ability in the elite troops doctrine.

I feel this ability completely counters and breaks one of the core gameplay loops in COH2, it feels completely out of place.

Obtaining vet units is one of the primary goals in a MP match but with this new ability that system is now sidelined for a German player and reduces a fun and challenging element of MP.

This ability is far too powerful in a winning players hands, if a player has map control they can vet up their units and replace destroyed vet units so quickly that a chance of a comeback for a soviet player is very low. Natural turning points in games are now removed because of the ability to replace vet units so quickly.

It is especially horrid in 2v2,3v3,4v4 games where resources are far more abundant.

IMO this ability should be removed or be based on a units build cost, say 20%.

/end rant





I totally agree with you.

It should be 1cp and infantry only, then I could probably live with it.
13 Nov 2013, 18:22 PM
#5
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:42 PMNullist
For 20 fuel, its valid.

The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor.
Vet isnt that great anymore. 20 fuel however is a severe setback.

A single Maxim will deal with Vet infantry, as will they die just as fast to a mortar, as will a sniper vet even faster by depleting an even more expensive unit. Basically that Vet doesnt do jack shit for you except against infantry in a vacuum. It doesnt help you one bit vs anything else except small arms combat.

Yes, a single unit may be more effective, but at 20 fuel, its a bitter cost that bites you back, hard, as the game progresses.


20 fuel is little compared to obtaining early map control. You underestimate the power of having a vet 3 unit (especially grenadiers) against vet 0 conscripts. They're basically immune to enemy fire unless they step on a molotov for 10 seconds, and the accuracy bonus means they don't even need LMGs to deal tons of damage. Maxims don't suppress them fast enough to be effective, and arrive too late anyway (unless you use the other pay to win commander, I guess). Snipers are a counter, but you're basically pigeonholded in T1-T4 against that doctrine. If you don't have snipers, veteran infantry crushes your conscripts, and if you don't have SU-85s, veteran tanks and the Tiger Ace crush you period.
13 Nov 2013, 18:22 PM
#6
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1534 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:42 PMNullist
For 20 fuel, its valid.

The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor.
Vet isnt that great anymore. 20 fuel however is a severe setback.

A single Maxim will deal with Vet infantry, as will they die just as fast to a mortar, as will a sniper vet even faster by depleting an even more expensive unit. Basically that Vet doesnt do jack shit for you except against infantry in a vacuum. It doesnt help you one bit vs anything else except small arms combat.

Yes, a single unit may be more effective, but at 20 fuel, its a bitter cost that bites you back, hard, as the game progresses.


Late game is where it is most broken, not early.
13 Nov 2013, 18:26 PM
#7
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 18:22 PMwuff


Late game is where it is most broken, not early.


yea if this ability is broken it would be in the late game.
13 Nov 2013, 18:39 PM
#8
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:07 PMwuff
Hey,

My thoughts on troop training ability in the elite troops doctrine.

I feel this ability completely counters and breaks one of the core gameplay loops in COH2, it feels completely out of place.

Obtaining vet units is one of the primary goals in a MP match but with this new ability that system is now sidelined for a German player and reduces a fun and challenging element of MP.

This ability is far too powerful in a winning players hands, if a player has map control they can vet up their units and replace destroyed vet units so quickly that a chance of a comeback for a soviet player is very low. Natural turning points in games are now removed because of the ability to replace vet units so quickly.

It is especially horrid in 2v2,3v3,4v4 games where resources are far more abundant.

IMO this ability should be removed or be based on a units build cost, say 20%.

/end rant





removed ? no ;)

take a look on soviet industry.This should be nerfed imo. Took me 5 sec to build t1 or t2 and t70 after 5 mins.....

14 Nov 2013, 00:09 AM
#9
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

Buying vet on tanks only gives you one level, so for tanks you are spending extra fuel and mp for just the blitz ability. I dont see how that is game breaking.

Buying vet early in game(for inf) means you are starting with fewer squads and delayed teching and armor. It only really pays off closer to mid game as its easier to keep vet 3 squads alive which recoups the extra cost per squad as you are not replacing with new squads as much.
14 Nov 2013, 00:15 AM
#10
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

I love how all the new German commanders are fine and Soviet ones are OP.

Lets talk about Luftwaffe support, shall we? Or Vet3 snipers shooting with high accuracy automatic carbines
14 Nov 2013, 00:23 AM
#11
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

i tried vet 3 sniper spam and it sucks. Maybe you saw something different but it stills dies just as fast it did before. I haven't heard any one cry about luftwaffe support, haven't even seen anyone use it. It looks like a horrible doc imo. Built around munition based abilities for germans who are always munition starved. Jury is still out.
14 Nov 2013, 00:25 AM
#12
avatar of Stoffa

Posts: 333

Lets just face it: not only is this ability broken, the whole game is completely broken since this last patch.
14 Nov 2013, 00:29 AM
#13
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

"For just blitz ability" and
"The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor"
are my favourite parts...


1 squad of vet 3 Grenadiers can slaughter two squads of vet 0 Conscripts at the price of a Scout Car and wins you the game...in 10 minutes or so it s GG
Blitz ability is still the German GTFO button even with damaged/destroyed/crippled engine yet you cry that you have "just blitz" at vet 1
14 Nov 2013, 00:59 AM
#14
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

....strong against 2 conscripts maybe.. but slaughter?..hyperbole much? Blitz is end all be all ability?

If what you say were true I would never lose.......Nor anyone with vet 3 grens or a vet 1 tank
14 Nov 2013, 01:28 AM
#15
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

....strong against 2 conscripts maybe.. but slaughter?..hyperbole much? Blitz is end all be all ability?

If what you say were true I would never lose.......Nor anyone with vet 3 grens or a vet 1 tank


It doesn't destroy 2 conscripts, but it can and will send even more of them packing if the squad is supported. And if the german player has a modicum of diligence, he'll follow with an LMG which is even more deadly with the accuracy buff. You pretty much need higher skill to beat that.
14 Nov 2013, 03:17 AM
#16
avatar of jeesuspietari

Posts: 168

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:42 PMNullist
For 20 fuel, its valid.

The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor.
Vet isnt that great anymore. 20 fuel however is a severe setback.

A single Maxim will deal with Vet infantry, as will they die just as fast to a mortar, as will a sniper vet even faster by depleting an even more expensive unit. Basically that Vet doesnt do jack shit for you except against infantry in a vacuum. It doesnt help you one bit vs anything else except small arms combat.

Yes, a single unit may be more effective, but at 20 fuel, its a bitter cost that bites you back, hard, as the game progresses.


I encourage you to play a 2v2, 3v3 or a 4v4 as soviets against a team utilizing this new troop training doctrine which doesn't do jack shit and bites you back, hard.

Feel free to let me know how it played out
14 Nov 2013, 04:19 AM
#17
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 17:42 PMNullist
For 20 fuel, its valid.

The cost is so severly crippling to teching and eventual armor.
Vet isnt that great anymore. 20 fuel however is a severe setback.

A single Maxim will deal with Vet infantry, as will they die just as fast to a mortar, as will a sniper vet even faster by depleting an even more expensive unit. Basically that Vet doesnt do jack shit for you except against infantry in a vacuum. It doesnt help you one bit vs anything else except small arms combat.

Yes, a single unit may be more effective, but at 20 fuel, its a bitter cost that bites you back, hard, as the game progresses.


I disagree (unless the soviet is the new soviet industry commander, in which case, I do agree). 20 fuel is very much worth it to gain map control. This is because there are very few things early game that can capitalize on fuel, meaning you can take a disproportionate amount of map control by buying vet3 grens and vet3 mortars. That map control translates to much more fuel income. ARMY NOW > MONEY SAVED because ARMY NOW is an investment that starts generating interest, so to speak.

I can give my personal experience against a player MUCH MUCH lower ranked than me abusing this. The guy was a terrible player but was able hold even map control by buying vet3 immediately when he had the fuel.
14 Nov 2013, 05:25 AM
#18
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Link0: Sounds like it could perhaps use an increase to atleast CP1 then, to avoid extreme early game fuel leveraging. Vetted Pio spam just occured to memas an idea, but I think thatnkind ofnfuel expenditure would cripple teching severly.

As to the match you cite, Id have to see it to comment, but T2 seems to be a solution with Maxim or Sniper, presuming you can maintain enough fuel control to tech, which Id think you can owing to the Ost player dumping esrly fuel into infantry rather than tech.
14 Nov 2013, 05:32 AM
#19
avatar of The Dave

Posts: 396

Nullist,

Honestly, people like you are exactly the reason why this game is in this god awful state. If you put a fraction of the time into the actual game that you do theorycrafting about it you might actually be somewhat decent. Your playercard speaks for itself.

Please stop giving advice. Apparently Relic listens to idiots.
14 Nov 2013, 05:38 AM
#20
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2013, 05:25 AMNullist
Link0: Sounds like it could perhaps use an increase to atleast CP1 then, to avoid extreme early game fuel leveraging. Vetted Pio spam just occured to memas an idea, but I think thatnkind ofnfuel expenditure would cripple teching severly.

As to the match you cite, Id have to see it to comment, but T2 seems to be a solution with Maxim or Sniper, presuming you can maintain enough fuel control to tech, which Id think you can owing to the Ost player dumping esrly fuel into infantry rather than tech.


I'd put it at 2 CP myself. It would still be problematic mid-late game, but at least the German player would have to fight for that early map control rather than click on his gren and then a-move to your cutoff. On Semois it's basically unbeatable.

My personal counter as of now is the Defensive community doctrine. A DSHK can suppress and do damage much better than a Maxim, and you can go T1 to grab a sniper. Quickly follow up with SU-85s to deal with the inevitable P4, hopefully having mines planted and/or a light AT gun. It's not perfect and the ability is still stupid, but hey, if Relic is willing to break their own game for $ it's up to us to hold it together innit?
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