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russian armor

Tiger nerf

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MMX
13 Apr 2020, 05:46 AM
#61
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



This is exactly what we found in our testing which, admittedly, was much less rigorous/thorough than your own! It seemed to have close to zero impact on the average time to kill. The intention was to reduce the unavoidable bleed that heavies inflicted across the board while still maintaining their strong anti-infantry firepower. They still should and do kill infantry or support weapons when they stick around, but shouldn't be quite as punishing in the first shot out of the fog of war.

There seems to be a placebo effect where people have decided that heavies are bad now and so they see heavies performing badly.


I think what adds to this problem is that people seem to grossly underestimate the huge variation in possible outcomes, especially in Tank vs Inf fights, due to the several layers of RNG in effect here. This, paired with confirmation bias as you pointed out, inevitably leads to wrong conclusions being drawn - which is understandable since especially those very unlucky, highly improbable events tend to stick in mind. KT overshoots four times in a row? Tank is total garbage!
The problem is that, sadly, this kind of preformed opinion is very hard to change, even in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
13 Apr 2020, 06:22 AM
#62
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 05:46 AMMMX


I think what adds to this problem is that people seem to grossly underestimate the huge variation in possible outcomes, especially in Tank vs Inf fights, due to the several layers of RNG in effect here. This, paired with confirmation bias as you pointed out, inevitably leads to wrong conclusions being drawn - which is understandable since especially those very unlucky, highly improbable events tend to stick in mind. KT overshoots four times in a row? Tank is total garbage!
The problem is that, sadly, this kind of preformed opinion is very hard to change, even in light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


While I’m not going to say you’re wrong, the model and tests don’t incorporate elevation or debris. The expectation of perfect tests is clearly unattainable, but I think it’s probable that tests can show the pinnacle of performance given they’re done in vacuum environments a lot of times.
MMX
13 Apr 2020, 07:32 AM
#63
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1



While I’m not going to say you’re wrong, the model and tests don’t incorporate elevation or debris. The expectation of perfect tests is clearly unattainable, but I think it’s probable that tests can show the pinnacle of performance given they’re done in vacuum environments a lot of times.


You're of course right, and probably all these testing and modelling results should come with a disclaimer that they represent only part of the overall picture. There are simply too many additional variables (collision w/ terrain or obstacles, squad spacing and movement, etc...) involved to be accurately modeled without making things overly complicated.
Still, while absolute numbers such as the S2K or T2K presented above shouldn't necessarily be taken face value, I'm confident the proportions or relative trends these results outline are pretty robust. After all, things like elevation and collision hits affect all tanks more or less in the same way.
But only time and plugging a lot of in-game stats will tell how accurate all the predictions and in vacuum test really are. Until then I guess this is the best we have - or at least better than a bits of anecdotal evidence.
13 Apr 2020, 08:03 AM
#64
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 07:32 AMMMX


You're of course right, and probably all these testing and modelling results should come with a disclaimer that they represent only part of the overall picture. There are simply too many additional variables (collision w/ terrain or obstacles, squad spacing and movement, etc...) involved to be accurately modeled without making things overly complicated.
Still, while absolute numbers such as the S2K or T2K presented above shouldn't necessarily be taken face value, I'm confident the proportions or relative trends these results outline are pretty robust. After all, things like elevation and collision hits affect all tanks more or less in the same way.
But only time and plugging a lot of in-game stats will tell how accurate all the predictions and in vacuum test really are. Until then I guess this is the best we have - or at least better than a bits of anecdotal evidence.


Gameplay wise the change is bigger than stats can show. Before you could call a Tiger and have him wipe a squad or two before your opponent had enough tools to respond. This would seal the majority of games.
That's toxic gameplay but many players relied on it to fight above their own weight.

13 Apr 2020, 09:14 AM
#65
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 08:03 AMEsxile


Gameplay wise the change is bigger than stats can show. Before you could call a Tiger and have him wipe a squad or two before your opponent had enough tools to respond. This would seal the majority of games.
That's toxic gameplay but many players relied on it to fight above their own weight.



Sure because Tiger wipes better than IS2 and Pershing... oh wait:foreveralone:
13 Apr 2020, 09:26 AM
#66
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

The Tiger held Ostheer together.

Now the lackluster performance of Ostheer really comes to light. This is not compensated by a cap buff and Inf reinforcement cost. This "buff" puts Ostheer Inf exactly to the point Tommies are from the start (28 mp and fast cap rate).

All in all the patch further nerfed Ostheer by taking away their crutch unit; mind you a faction that was down there close to uselessness with Brits. Brits however got some better buffs.
13 Apr 2020, 09:35 AM
#67
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 09:26 AMButcher
The Tiger held Ostheer together.

Now the lackluster performance of Ostheer really comes to light. This is not compensated by a cap buff and Inf reinforcement cost. This "buff" puts Ostheer Inf exactly to the point Tommies are from the start (28 mp and fast cap rate).

All in all the patch further nerfed Ostheer by taking away their crutch unit; mind you a faction that was down there close to uselessness with Brits. Brits however got some better buffs.


Actually this is incorrect, tommy gets 25%. After T4 every single Ost inf unit gets an extra 10%.(sapper or vickers etc have no bonus) Plus cheaper ost weapon teams, grens, pios and ostruppen.

It's a buff, you can't argue any other way because Sov, OKW or USF do not have such cap speeds on infantry.

However Pgrens and doctrinal inf apart from 5man gren and ostruppen are not effected by price reduction.

13 Apr 2020, 10:19 AM
#68
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



Sure because Tiger wipes better than IS2 and Pershing... oh wait:foreveralone:


Well, except for CODGUY, nobody is crying over Pershing or IS2 and both of them have been nerfed quite heavily along side with the Tiger. But here we are with several players crying over the Tiger only.
13 Apr 2020, 10:37 AM
#70
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 10:34 AMVipper
Can we stop arguments about weather allied or axis fanboys cry more and focus on the performance of the unit?

Yes.

The performance of the unit is in line with other similar units, being exactly in the middle between IS-2 and Pershing.

/thread
13 Apr 2020, 10:42 AM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 10:37 AMKatitof

Yes.

The performance of the unit is in line with other similar units, being exactly in the middle between IS-2 and Pershing.

/thread

That would end the tread if faction where equal in every other way. They are not and thus it does not.

Feel free to test the unit or play games with and provide useful feedback.
13 Apr 2020, 10:50 AM
#72
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 10:42 AMVipper

That would end the tread if faction where equal in every other way. They are not and thus it does not.

Feel free to test the unit or play games with and provide useful feedback.

If you believe a faction needs this one particular late game unit to have a fair chance, I don't think you're skilled enough with that faction to discuss it.

13 Apr 2020, 10:52 AM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Apr 2020, 10:50 AMKatitof

If you believe a faction needs this one particular late game unit to have a fair chance, I don't think you're skilled enough with that faction to discuss it.


IF you believe that you know what you are talking about with playing a single game with or against a tiger you are disillusion.

Now try to stick to what I have actually posted when you are quoting me.
13 Apr 2020, 12:05 PM
#74
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

It would have been better if they went with Switching the rounds to HE/AP like the Sherman for All Heavy tanks so they can specialize at one role and make use of combined arms than to make heavy tanks into useless Resource Sinks. At the moment Heavy Tanks are pretty much a waste.
13 Apr 2020, 15:45 PM
#75
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2020, 12:35 PMmrgame2
mind your units composition. combined arms.
stop and shoot your tiger.
tiger is easy to vet up, and it's rof and buffed turret makes it a better killer.

the secret is to vet up. no longer it can OP solo.
l2p issue.

brits are still shitty without late game unit.


when mrgame2 tells you its a l2p issue, you know it's a seriously stupid thread.
13 Apr 2020, 18:01 PM
#76
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



While I’m not going to say you’re wrong, the model and tests don’t incorporate elevation or debris. The expectation of perfect tests is clearly unattainable, but I think it’s probable that tests can show the pinnacle of performance given they’re done in vacuum environments a lot of times.


Which is never the case. Cause mostly no one has the time or will to run a test 30/50 times.

People makes bias selection on the type of information that fits their narrative. For me i put the same weight in the information provided by MMX as what Tightrope has provided and then considered which one has a higher probability to show what is true based on sample size.


It's simple human psychology. We weight negative outcomes doubly than positive ones.
Ask someone to bet money and only when they can win double of what they can lose they start to be comfortable in their decision (coin toss, bet $10 to win $30 total not $20).

Same in games with buffs and nerfs. It's also interesting seeing the effects of placebo nerfs as well. There's been cases in MOBAS when they announced nerfs on a changelog but never implemented them and still a character would drop in win%.
9 Jun 2020, 10:07 AM
#77
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

Now that we have seen 2 tournaments and time has passed since the patch, what can we say?
9 Jun 2020, 10:10 AM
#78
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Now that we have seen 2 tournaments and time has passed since the patch, what can we say?

That all limited to 1 vehicles are good despite panic herd mentality of the people proclaiming them non viable and if you're in a deep shit, heavy is no longer able to get you out of it.
9 Jun 2020, 10:34 AM
#79
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Now that we have seen 2 tournaments and time has passed since the patch, what can we say?


I can say we only see ISU/IS-2 and Ele now. Rip anything else

Sometimes you might see elite armor KT in in 1vs1
9 Jun 2020, 14:43 PM
#80
avatar of Kieselberg

Posts: 268



Tiger went from an instant pick to almost non existing; 5 man grens are meta right now, even though Luv/DevM used Blitzkrieg doc once or twice.

Brumbär and Pwerfer are filling the Ai gap now.

Other ways of late game anti infantry power, beside 5 man grens,are non existing. This meta feels fresh, even though grens/infantry late game survivability are still OST´s biggest construction side.

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