[Release] DeCoHde 2.0 (Snake Edition!) WIP [Help needed]

I meant implemented in my calculations

I misunderstood.

Alright. Did some testing with Vipper's mod.

The current scatter model seems to be correct, which means the simulation should come very close to what we would observe in-game.

It looks like the angle scatter is chosen with equal probabilities for every angle as well.
I have not quantified it (yet), but from what I have seen there does not seem to be any preference for shooting more towards the targeted squad. The Puma fills the half circle in front of it quite nicely and evenly.
Also it looks quite funny.


(bottom Puma was shooting to the right obviously)

Snip

I do believe the physical size of the models can be found by going into the mapmaker and spawning them in - it shows their hitbox as a, well, box.

Okay, after some (extensive!) testing on the scatter mechanics and quite a bit of confusion I'm now pretty confident to claim I know how it actually works.

The initial assumption was that the probability for a shot to land at any point within the scatter cone is always the same, meaning scattering towards the edge of the scatter cone should happen - on average - exactly as often as landing dead center on the target. However, since I hadn't been able to find any proof that this is actually the case I've come up with a method to put it to a test (see spoiler for details on the methodology and results), which turned out to be quite perplexing.

Show Spoiler

In short, and as a TLDR if you didn't make it through the entire spoiler, scatter probability is indeed flat (i.e. probability is independent from the distance between impact and target).
Furthermore, infantry models appear to have a hitbox with a radius of roughly 0.5 m (in reality, these are probably rectangular like the tank hitboxes, but circular boxes are much more simple to calculate with), which means the even weapons with a near AOE radius of 0, such as any of the heavies in the WBP, deal full damage in a radius of 0.5 m around the model (basically, all tabulated AOE distances can be extended by 0.5 m).

Okay, after some (extensive!) testing on the scatter mechanics and quite a bit of confusion I'm now pretty confident to claim I know how it actually works.

The initial assumption was that the probability for a shot to land at any point within the scatter cone is always the same, meaning scattering towards the edge of the scatter cone should happen - on average - exactly as often as landing dead center on the target. However, since I hadn't been able to find any proof that this is actually the case I've come up with a method to put it to a test (see spoiler for details on the methodology and results), which turned out to be quite perplexing.

Show Spoiler

In short, and as a TLDR if you didn't make it through the entire spoiler, scatter probability is indeed flat (i.e. probability is independent from the distance between impact and target).
Furthermore, infantry models appear to have a hitbox with a radius of roughly 0.5 m (in reality, these are probably rectangular like the tank hitboxes, but circular boxes are much more simple to calculate with), which means the even weapons with a near AOE radius of 0, such as any of the heavies in the WBP, deal full damage in a radius of 0.5 m around the model (basically, all tabulated AOE distances can be extended by 0.5 m).

That's a very good finding, thanks for the effort (which was quite a lot)!

Is there any way to test if this applied to infantry combat as well? If infantry has hit boxes, then small arms should theoretically be able to scatter hit the hit box as well.

Does anyone know if this could be the case? Otherwise a lot of the DPS must be reworked.
Small arms also have scatter values, but from what I see these might be purely for visual effects (missed shots, ground hits, tracers etc).

That's a very good finding, thanks for the effort (which was quite a lot)!

Is there any way to test if this applied to infantry combat as well? If infantry has hit boxes, then small arms should theoretically be able to scatter hit the hit box as well.

Does anyone know if this could be the case? Otherwise a lot of the DPS must be reworked.
Small arms also have scatter values, but from what I see these might be purely for visual effects (missed shots, ground hits, tracers etc).

Collision hits require a projectiles and small arm do not have projectiles so there are no collision hits.

On could consider the "scatter hits" the chance of some weapon to hit another entities than the one they are firing.

That's a very good finding, thanks for the effort (which was quite a lot)!

Is there any way to test if this applied to infantry combat as well? If infantry has hit boxes, then small arms should theoretically be able to scatter hit the hit box as well.

Does anyone know if this could be the case? Otherwise a lot of the DPS must be reworked.
Small arms also have scatter values, but from what I see these might be purely for visual effects (missed shots, ground hits, tracers etc).

Hmm, that's a good question. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about how small arms combat works in-game, except where to point the business end of the gun. But maybe someone else can chime in and judge if collision boxes might be a thing in small-arms combat as well?


EDIT

Just saw Vipper's post, so I guess that's a no?

Collision hits require a projectiles and small arm do not have projectiles so there are no collision hits.

On could consider the "scatter hits" the chance of some weapon to hit another entities than the one they are firing.

I know this was thought for BARs, but wasn't that debunked at some point?

And do you know for which weapons this second roll after missing the inital target is performed? Is it known how it is determined weather another model is hit or not?

You are talking about small arm weapons with the property of focus fire set to false.

I know this was thought for BARs, but wasn't that debunked at some point?

And do you know for which weapons this second roll after missing the inital target is performed? Is it known how it is determined weather another model is hit or not?

All small arms weapons that have "focus fire" set to false.
Here are few:
hmg42, Maxim, DSHK,hmg34

MP44, BAR, FG42

Grease Gun, MP40, PPsh

kubel


There have been some test I am under the impression that there is check if there any entities behind target and if there is then go thru an accuracy check.

A quick question on the ROF calculation:

In Vippers DPS guide, he shows a formula that was developed by Cruzz to calculate the rate of fire of a given unit. The formula goes like this:

(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)


There are two parts. The first line is mltiplied with (1+reload frequency), afterwards there are some corrections by subtracting cooldown and fire aim time, apparently because they do not exist after the last burst.


My question concerns tank combat. Tanks have a reload frequency of 1. According to the formula above, wind up, wind down and burst duration would be factored in twice. But I find thia counter-intuitive.

What is the correct formula to calculate the time between shota for a tank?

A quick question on the ROF calculation:

In Vippers DPS guide, he shows a formula that was developed by Cruzz to calculate the rate of fire of a given unit. The formula goes like this:

(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)


There are two parts. The first line is mltiplied with (1+reload frequency), afterwards there are some corrections by subtracting cooldown and fire aim time, apparently because they do not exist after the last burst.


My question concerns tank combat. Tanks have a reload frequency of 1. According to the formula above, wind up, wind down and burst duration would be factored in twice. But I find thia counter-intuitive.

What is the correct formula to calculate the time between shota for a tank?

Since I'm quite lazy, I usually use the reciprocal of the NearShots/Sec from the Weapon Report .csv file to get the total time between shots. This is usually enough for most cases, but if I need to factor in buffs to reload from abilities or vet I split this into a fixed 'delay' part and the actual 'reload' component (by simply subtracting the reload).
I've tried the formula above but got slightly off results from what I'd expect (i.e. 1 / NearShots/Sec). Removing the fire_aim and ready_aim from the formula you posted seems to work, though... at least it gives the correct delay between shots:

((windup + aim_time + burst_length + winddown + cooldown) * (1 + reload_frequency) - cooldown + reload) / (1 + reload_frequency)

Since I'm quite lazy, I usually use the reciprocal of the NearShots/Sec from the Weapon Report .csv file to get the total time between shots. This is usually enough for most cases, but if I need to factor in buffs to reload from abilities or vet I split this into a fixed 'delay' part and the actual 'reload' component (by simply subtracting the reload).
I've tried the formula above but got slightly off results from what I'd expect (i.e. 1 / NearShots/Sec). Removing the fire_aim and ready_aim from the formula you posted seems to work, though... at least it gives the correct delay between shots:

((windup + aim_time + burst_length + winddown + cooldown) * (1 + reload_frequency) - cooldown + reload) / (1 + reload_frequency)

I have to crrect myself on the original post, tanks have a reload frequency of 0 (from the couple I looked at at least). This would mean that cooldown and fire_aim are eliminated from the formula, but see below.


Are you sure about your formula?

I just modded a T34 (to all values = 1 and then I started changing them to 2 to see if and how often it is applied and affects the time between shots) and from what I see cooldown does not matter at all.
Now I'm not sure if there is a quirk with the attribute editor, but I went to the cooldown->duration and added 3 seconds for both min and max. In the game however it did nothing at all.

Or did I do something wrong?

From what I see for tanks it goes like this:

ready_aim_time: is applied only ONCE the first shot (probably for every new target)
wind_up and wind_down are applied once per cylce
fire_aim_time is applied once per cylce
reload_duration is applied once per cylce

HOWEVER I still get half a second I cannot explain. No idea where it comes from. With all the values above set to 1, my modded T34 should have 4 seconds between shots. But what I actually measured were 4,5 seconds. Regardless of which factor I subsequently changed, there was always half a second added to what I expected.

I have to crrect myself on the original post, tanks have a reload frequency of 0 (from the couple I looked at at least). This would mean that cooldown and fire_aim are eliminated from the formula, but see below.


Are you sure about your formula?

I just modded a T34 (to all values = 1 and then I started changing them to 2 to see if and how often it is applied and affects the time between shots) and from what I see cooldown does not matter at all.
Now I'm not sure if there is a quirk with the attribute editor, but I went to the cooldown->duration and added 3 seconds for both min and max. In the game however it did nothing at all.

Or did I do something wrong?

From what I see for tanks it goes like this:

ready_aim_time: is applied only ONCE the first shot (probably for every new target)
wind_up and wind_down are applied once per cylce
fire_aim_time is applied once per cylce
reload_duration is applied once per cylce

HOWEVER I still get half a second I cannot explain. No idea where it comes from. With all the values above set to 1, my modded T34 should have 4 seconds between shots. But what I actually measured were 4,5 seconds. Regardless of which factor I subsequently changed, there was always half a second added to what I expected.

Actually I'm not 100% sure if the formula is correct, at least not on the part if it actually works correctly in-game. I used to assume the NearShots/Sec from the Weapon Report is accurate and never did any in-game testing to confirm.

Cooldown duration will have no effect if reload frequency is still set to 0 (e.g. no salvo is fired, just a single shot. Did you try setting this to >0 already?

Other than that I'm not sure where the mysterious 0.5 sec comes from. Maybe anyone else has an idea?

Actually I'm not 100% sure if the formula is correct, at least not on the part if it actually works correctly in-game. I used to assume the NearShots/Sec from the Weapon Report is accurate and never did any in-game testing to confirm.

Cooldown duration will have no effect if reload frequency is still set to 0 (e.g. no salvo is fired, just a single shot. Did you try setting this to >0 already?

Other than that I'm not sure where the mysterious 0.5 sec comes from. Maybe anyone else has an idea?

Vipper just wrote me that the cool down only applied for weapons with magazines, so tanks are irrelevant for this.

I might have to run a couple more tests later on if this is only the case for the T34 or potentially other tanks as well.

Vipper just wrote me that the cool down only applied for weapons with magazines, so tanks are irrelevant for this.

That's correct. However, if you want to include the Ostwind (or PzIII, Centaur or the AAHTs) in your simulation cooldown may still be important. Usually I use a "mean" shot delay for these according to the formula I posted earlier, but it's also possible to calculate this more accurately (e.g. 10 shots fired would be 7 x cooldown + 1 reload + 2 x cooldown).

Okay, so I did some testing, obviously they are open for criticism.

Tested T34/76, ZiS-3, Brummbär, Jagdtiger and Firefly with ground attack and measured 9 or 10 shot cycles (skipped the first cycle to be a bit more precise). Stopped time by ear with eyes closed and only went for the shot sound. All units except for the ZiS have defined reload and fire aim times with no RNG according to the attribute editor. Wind up/down is always defined with no RNG.

All were off and took longer than expected. This is what it took them longer than it should have per shot:
T34/76: 0,27 s
ZiS-3: 0,48 s
Brummbär: 0,25 s
Firefly: 0,25 s
Jagdtiger: 0,24 s

Side note: ZiS has a fire aim time between 0,125 and 0,25 seconds.

Now first off I did not get the ~0,5 seconds I got earlier on the T34. Retested it with 20 shots and still the same. So either I am just shitty at measuring or my modding previously screwed something up. At least the tanks seem to be consistent at 0,25s.

Are those numbers real? To be honest, I think so. If it were just my shitty measurements, at the end of each run I should be off by 2,5 seconds (10 shots * 0,25 seconds per shot). With the rerun of the T34 even about 5 seconds. That's almost a full cycle, pretty sure I would have noticed that.

Wait:

Isn't the game "calculated" in 0,125 second ticks?

If for some reason it takes the tank one tick to "realize" that it needs to do new stuff at the beginning and end of the cycle, it might explain it?

Just theocrafting here though.

...

Most DPS calculation take into account the times for the first and last shot so their bound to difference when shooting continuously and when you acquire a target.

Most DPS calculation take into account the times for the first and last shot so their bound to difference when shooting continuously and when you acquire a target.

I calculated the difference between what I measured and just adding up reload, win up, wind down and fire aim time. These four values should give a theoretical time between shots for continued firing. But they are off.

What I just realized is that my modded T34 had both wind up and down and a delay of 0,5. Maybe wind up and down could add additional 0,125 seconds due to tick rate. This would explain why the effect is gone with the vanilla T34. And also why thr ZiS has a higher difference than it should, because it alsp uses wind up (or down, can't remember)

Wull do some testing