Disclaimer: I may be wrong on this one so put down the torches.
I’ve been looking at sov vs ostheer games to kind of see how the Puma would do and what I noticed is that the T70 is usually on the field between 4 and 5 CPs. As the Puma change currently stands, at 5CP and with a build time, it’s way too late to arrive and counter the T70 and not let it push you off the map entirely. Hence why the Puma CP requirement needs to be reduced to 4CP, or there needs to be a 10-20 fuel HQ sidetech to unlock the Puma before 5CP. There’s literally no reason whatsoever to arbitrarily deny the Puma from the Ostheer player, when it’s desperately needed, until the arbitrary 5CP timing. This is fine vs UsF/UKF since their light vehicles are not as oppressive, but vs the T70 you pick mobile defense to survive the T70 so if you need the Puma earlier you should be able to get it.
In summary: Either Puma at 4 CP or make a 10-20 fuel HQ sidetech to unlock Puma early.
5CP Puma is way too late
6 Mar 2020, 11:11 AM
#1
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
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6 Mar 2020, 11:13 AM
#2
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
T70 can do nothing with puma around.
Why a limited time window unit should be hardcountered before it even has a chance to hit the field?
OKW at least sacrifices healing for that.
Also, puma was 5cp before already and it was sufficiently OP to the point of tech gating, so you don't even have an argument here.
Why a limited time window unit should be hardcountered before it even has a chance to hit the field?
OKW at least sacrifices healing for that.
Also, puma was 5cp before already and it was sufficiently OP to the point of tech gating, so you don't even have an argument here.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Mar 2020, 11:14 AM
#3
Posts: 732
Maybe Puma and all commander light armor change to 0cp+Tech request will better
6 Mar 2020, 11:17 AM
#4
Posts: 5279
To play devils advocate
If the t70 doesnt have any time to roam its killed off entirely and the entire of soviet t3 with it as the puma wont struggle with the su76 or kraut mower much either. Youll run into an earlier version of live where allied tds hit the field the same time or before the p4 and its kin which leads to heavy meta. Doctrinal answers to no doc problems creates crutches and the puma should not be required to fight the t70. If its an issue other changes need to be made
If the t70 doesnt have any time to roam its killed off entirely and the entire of soviet t3 with it as the puma wont struggle with the su76 or kraut mower much either. Youll run into an earlier version of live where allied tds hit the field the same time or before the p4 and its kin which leads to heavy meta. Doctrinal answers to no doc problems creates crutches and the puma should not be required to fight the t70. If its an issue other changes need to be made
#stalinwept
6 Mar 2020, 11:17 AM
#5
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Why a limited time window unit should be hardcountered before it even has a chance to hit the field?
Well my point is vs ukf and usf that’s fine, M20s, Stuarts, AAHTs and M5s/AECs should indeed have a window of opportunity to be rushed and used.
The T70 does not deserve that since it can hit the field and single handedly push you off the field and locked in your base within a minute. That thing if used properly cannot be killed by anything other than a lucky teller until the Puma shows up, hence why I suggested allowing the Ostheer player to sacrifice some fuel to unlock the Puma earlier.
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6 Mar 2020, 11:19 AM
#6
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Well my point is vs ukf and usf that’s fine, M20s, Stuarts, AAHTs and M5s/AECs should indeed have a window of opportunity to be rushed and used.
The T70 does not deserve that since it can hit the field and single handedly push you off the field and locked in your base within a minute. That thing if used properly cannot be killed by anything other than a lucky teller until the Puma shows up, hence why I suggested allowing the Ostheer player to sacrifice some fuel to unlock the Puma earlier.
So does luchs... And yet, soviet T3 doesn't arrive any faster because of that.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Mar 2020, 11:19 AM
#7
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
So does luchs... And yet, soviet T3 doesn't arrive any faster because of that.
Luchs is nowhere near as lethal.
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6 Mar 2020, 11:23 AM
#8
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Luchs is nowhere near as lethal.
If you catch a 6 man squad between tank and the cover, 1-2 bursts can obliterate the squad.
Had that happen plenty of times.
Luchs is lethal enough for its timing and cost and so is T-70.
Because you don't like fighting against certain unit is not a reason to nerf it.
I HATE facing off panthers, but I'm not going around from thread to thread and making new threads on how to delay panthers or how to buff TDs to the point where panther doesn't have a place in the game just because I hate fighting it.
No difference to peoples crusade against T-70.
The unit got most nerfs out of all units in CoH2, it will not be turned into 70 fuel, 10+ minute 222, at some point you'll just have to accept the issue is you.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Mar 2020, 11:26 AM
#9
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Because you don't like fighting against certain unit is not a reason to nerf it.
First of all, there’s no comparison between the Luchs and the T70. None.
Second, you pick mobile defense for the Puma, so you should have it available for its intended role, aka stopping the T70 from winning the game on its own. As OKW you can get a fast Puma and do that, but Ostheer is stuck wih an arbitrary 5CP requirement, hence why I suggested a small fuel cost to unlock the Puma earlier.
There is no justification to letting a unit roam without a counter and wreck a game. None.
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6 Mar 2020, 11:30 AM
#10
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
First of all, there’s no comparison between the Luchs and the T70. None.
Both are shock units that if not anticipated will easily force you off the field.
Same with flame 251, same with M15.
Second, you pick mobile defense for the Puma, so you should have it available for its intended role, aka stopping the T70 from winning the game on its own. As OKW you can get a fast Puma and do that, but Ostheer is stuck wih an arbitrary 5CP requirement, hence why I suggested a small fuel cost to unlock the Puma earlier.
And if I'm picking shoucks to counter ass grens, shouldn't shocks arrive earlier, before ass grens wreck the place?
There is no justification to letting a unit roam without a counter and wreck a game. None.
Then.
Build.
Anti tank guns.
And place mines.
Sometimes gren blob into tiger just won't work.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Mar 2020, 11:42 AM
#11
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
You're thinking about this wrong.
There's no longer a tech cost required for the Puma, this frees up 90 fuel, which allows you to spam light vehicles like no tomorrow.
You have to play this doctrine with a very aggressive army composition like 1 FHT + 444 + Puma, this is how DevM and VonIvan used to use the doctrine and it's quite micro intensive, but also one of the few ways to force a really early win with Ostheer. You'Il also earn the CP's quite fast.
Looking at current replays does not highlight the potential of next patch techless Puma.
There's no longer a tech cost required for the Puma, this frees up 90 fuel, which allows you to spam light vehicles like no tomorrow.
You have to play this doctrine with a very aggressive army composition like 1 FHT + 444 + Puma, this is how DevM and VonIvan used to use the doctrine and it's quite micro intensive, but also one of the few ways to force a really early win with Ostheer. You'Il also earn the CP's quite fast.
Looking at current replays does not highlight the potential of next patch techless Puma.
6 Mar 2020, 11:57 AM
#12
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
You have to play this doctrine with a very aggressive army composition like 1 FHT + 444 + Puma, this is how DevM and VonIvan used to use the doctrine and it's quite micro intensive, but also one of the few ways to force a really early win with Ostheer. You'Il also earn the CP's quite fast..
Very interesting. I’m definitely giving this a try once the patch comes out.
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6 Mar 2020, 13:16 PM
#13
Posts: 3260
Very interesting. I’m definitely giving this a try once the patch comes out.
You didn't already know that?
Why are you suggesting buffing the once dominating Mobidef strategy when you're not even familiar with it?
6 Mar 2020, 13:18 PM
#14
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Very interesting. I’m definitely giving this a try once the patch comes out.
I'll try to find some replays for you, so you can prepare for the next patch.
6 Mar 2020, 13:23 PM
#15
Posts: 3260
I'll try to find some replays for you, so you can prepare for the next patch.
AE's channel should have loads. This strategy was all over GCS2.
6 Mar 2020, 13:33 PM
#16
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
I'll try to find some replays for you, so you can prepare for the next patch.
Yes please
Meanwhile I’m trying out your community D strat and it works like a charm.
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6 Mar 2020, 14:12 PM
#17
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
Yes please
Meanwhile I’m trying out your community D strat and it works like a charm.
I want to write a guide about Community Defensive next patch, too bad Stug E and Osttruppen LMG timing are getting nerfed by my own doing lol.
6 Mar 2020, 16:06 PM
#18
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
You're thinking about this wrong.
There's no longer a tech cost required for the Puma, this frees up 90 fuel, which allows you to spam light vehicles like no tomorrow.
You have to play this doctrine with a very aggressive army composition like 1 FHT + 444 + Puma, this is how DevM and VonIvan used to use the doctrine and it's quite micro intensive, but also one of the few ways to force a really early win with Ostheer. You'Il also earn the CP's quite fast.
Looking at current replays does not highlight the potential of next patch techless Puma.
This is the way.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
6 Mar 2020, 16:11 PM
#19
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
This is the way.
Only question is vs which opponents/commanders and on which maps you employ this.
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6 Mar 2020, 16:42 PM
#20
Posts: 3260
Only question is vs which opponents/commanders and on which maps you employ this.
It's effectively Ostheer Mechanized spam, except your LVs cost 200 MP 30 FU and they've all got defensive smoke at CP2.
USF will probably have the easiest time of it because the Stuart is specifically geared to bully the 222: it's got high armour for an LV which is pretty useless against meds but lets it take on three 222s at once.
Commanderwise, probably expect even more use of heavy tank doctrines. Mobidef created the heavy stalling meta in the first place because it was the best counter to it.
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