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Tiger Ace Explained

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18 Nov 2013, 21:48 PM
#161
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

you are not reading - panthers and p4's are hardly doctrinal units.




Sorry say what? Even if a russian player has all his doctrinal units, dont you think the german player does not have this as well? And that is when it all goes tits up when the ACE rolls in, because both teams were on par, and all of a sudden a FREE killing beast rolls in with the support of the rest of its army


enough said. there i was thinking i screwed up
18 Nov 2013, 21:52 PM
#162
avatar of Paranoia

Posts: 93

My bad basic watching Eastbound and down, fucks up my writing skills - meant to say basic units
18 Nov 2013, 22:00 PM
#163
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

My bad basic watching Eastbound and down, fucks up my writing skills - meant to say basic units


youre right there, though. he might have p4s and panthers. but you got your basics,too + any high tier doctrinal stuff thats has a max of 6 cps.
and if he utilizes his 0cp vet ability he might even have less late game units (with higher vet ofc, but they added the vet-multiplier for that, i guess)
i just remember that someone mentioned an increase in popcap cost. i think that would be a way though. since the major problem seems to be the army supporting the TA being to massive, not the TA himself
18 Nov 2013, 22:01 PM
#164
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

As said plenty of times, the loss of resources doesn't justify the FREE God-mode Tiger, as it usually appears when german player realizes that the game is lost.

Is not usually indestructible because sometimes the german player is too screwed to save the day even with the Ace Tiger.

But in even games, where the russian players are winning by Victory Points is when Tiger Ace is more OP.
Because the two teams are equal in army forces is unfair that one player (or maybe more) could call a single unit more valuable than half their army.

The only way I'll accept Tiger Ace is if it'd have a HUGE popcap, like 40 or 50.
Even with that it will be hard to balance in team games where is too easy to support the Tiger Ace and destroy everything your rivals can send.
18 Nov 2013, 22:05 PM
#165
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

haha i just lost a game, because i was still in queue and forgot about it while writing posts in here. goodbye streak
18 Nov 2013, 22:32 PM
#166
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



youre right there, though. he might have p4s and panthers. but you got your basics,too + any high tier doctrinal stuff thats has a max of 6 cps.
and if he utilizes his 0cp vet ability he might even have less late game units (with higher vet ofc, but they added the vet-multiplier for that, i guess)
i just remember that someone mentioned an increase in popcap cost. i think that would be a way though. since the major problem seems to be the army supporting the TA being to massive, not the TA himself




If a soviet (or any german commander that is not EI) goes for a 5-6cp heavy tank, he will have little tank support of his own, and the opponent will always have more. If a german has a tiger and a p4, he is likely to face something like 3 SU85s (balanced). If a soviet calls in a IS-2, he is likely facing 2 p4s (balanced). If an elite infantry player calls in his super tiger, while he has 2p4s, he will not face 5 SU85s, just 2. And he will win, end the game will end.

There is a reason why other heavy tanks are balanced, and the tiger ace is not. The tiger ace should just be a call in like any other heavy tank: expensive when you get it, not 15 minutes after you get it.

Edit: just saw your last reply on the previous page. You can ignore this one.
18 Nov 2013, 22:42 PM
#167
avatar of spam.r33k

Posts: 503

i still have a question though, aerohank. what do you think about higher population cost for the tiger ace? or do you still think it needs to be changed in the mp/fuel cost departement? just interested, since i engaged in more arguing then i at first intended to... i was going to post my opinion and be done with it. but here i am still arguing
18 Nov 2013, 22:58 PM
#168
avatar of Paranoia

Posts: 93

its discussing not arguing and you have the right of your opinion, i just dont agree with your reasoning. What Aerohank said is exactly what i meant as well. I also dont think pop cap will fix it. It needs to cost something other than an income stop which is stupid anyway
18 Nov 2013, 23:08 PM
#169
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

I think the cost of the Ace works ok, hear me out:

Say you get 2 p4's and a collection of inf, you will not have 7 CP yet, but if you continue to produce units you will probably pop cap yourself so you can't call the Ace (I've done that once). Also if you do call it, your large army will die off fast due to obvious upkeep costs.

On the other hand, once you have above army, if you then save your resources for after you call the Ace, it will sustain your army a while afterwards. (This is how I use it).

3rd scenario is that your taking a bit of a battering from the soviet and have had to keep using resources just to try get the above army.. Now if you call the ace it will be a close affair because you don't have the solid support, or resources to back it up, it could crumble around your ace.


So IMO, it works best when you save resources leading up to calling it, in much the same way you save resources for a normal heavy... Except the permenant halt to res is actually a higher cost.
18 Nov 2013, 23:09 PM
#170
avatar of VonMecha

Posts: 419

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Nov 2013, 22:01 PMGreeb
As said plenty of times, the loss of resources doesn't justify the FREE God-mode Tiger, as it usually appears when german player realizes that the game is lost.

Is not usually indestructible because sometimes the german player is too screwed to save the day even with the Ace Tiger.



The only way I'll accept Tiger Ace is if it'd have a HUGE popcap, like 40 or 50.
Even with that it will be hard to balance in team games where is too easy to support the Tiger Ace and destroy everything your rivals can send.


When i first started using the tiger ace it brought me back from the dead or finished my opponents off. Now they just mine and at nade and flank till engine is dead then stay away from it and kill all my inf and cap. I stopped using it because most people are seeing past the oh mygod wtf kill machine and just focus on what they need to do to win.
The tiger ace is the most expensive tank in the history of the coh series because it costs infinite manpower and infinite fuel and infinite munitions. Not sure if you tried it yet but it is painful when using it trying to cap and decap points with 1 man squads and such
18 Nov 2013, 23:31 PM
#171
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

When i first started using the tiger ace it brought me back from the dead or finished my opponents off. Now they just mine and at nade and flank till engine is dead then stay away from it and kill all my inf and cap. I stopped using it because most people are seeing past the oh mygod wtf kill machine and just focus on what they need to do to win.
The tiger ace is the most expensive tank in the history of the coh series because it costs infinite manpower and infinite fuel and infinite munitions. Not sure if you tried it yet but it is painful when using it trying to cap and decap points with 1 man squads and such


Do you know how many time need vetted pios to repair the damage done by a ATnade?? Just seconds.
Anyway ATnade is pure RNG, same as ramming it with T34s, and the unit always dies trying it.

Mines are situational, and cunning players use arty or teammate's units to clean the path before the Tiger.

What you said can be true in a 1vs1 game where the german player is alone and the resource loss is a big penalty and you still can avoid the Tiger and cap Vps, but not in 2vs2 or higher, where Tiger Ace is supported by teammate's vetted PzIV and Panthers.

And I think the opposite, I think Tiger Ace is the most powerful tanks and cheapest in the story of CoH. No mp, no fuel, no popcap, no risk... Just call it when you throw the towel and instead of clicking the "surrender" button just click the "Super Oh-My-God Tiger Ace" and have a sparkly second chance to win the match.
18 Nov 2013, 23:59 PM
#172
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

i still have a question though, aerohank. what do you think about higher population cost for the tiger ace? or do you still think it needs to be changed in the mp/fuel cost departement? just interested, since i engaged in more arguing then i at first intended to... i was going to post my opinion and be done with it. but here i am still arguing


Increasing the pop cap will only fix part of the problem. An even game between two aggressive players hovering around the 50-60 pop cap will still end the game in the Germans favor once the ace is called in. The unit just has too much front loaded power. Finding a proper solution is going to be a bit tricky.

Just giving it a mp/fuel cost like other heavy tanks (and remove resource block) is problematic seeing as how powerful the tank is. It's currently twice as durable as a normal tiger (.45 damage modifier), does double the damage, has more range, and starts with vet. Considering a normal tiger is 720(700?)mp/200fuel, the ace would come close to double of that. This would make the tiger so expensive that the German player will likely get pushed of the field by a horde of T34/76s before even getting close to calling in the ace. To prevent this from happening the German will need a lot of PAK40s, which leads to a rather passive, boring, game. We already see this in 1v1 when a soviet goes for the ISU-152, and it will be even worse for the tiger ace.

A possible solution would be to make the ace more affordable at the expense of some of its stats. If it only had a .75 damage modifier and and 1.5x damage, extra range and blitz, then it could come out for somewhere around the price of an ISU-152. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less.

Or perhaps some middle ground can be found, where the ace has an initial cost, and only reduces income by X%. Or halts income until the ace dies. This will require a lot of tinkering until proper balance is achieved though. Making it too cheap to acquire will result in base rushes (as we have now), making it too cheap in upkeep will make acquiring it too difficult as its initial price will go up.

I think the best way to balance the tiger ace is by doing all of the above: nerf some of its stats, give it an initial cost to acquire, and only reduce income by X% until it dies, so that capping territory will still be important for the German player and the unit is not only used for baserushing.
19 Nov 2013, 00:28 AM
#173
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292

What do you guys think about always getting "Heavy Engine Damage" when you get a successful ram/at nade? I know that the Gerry community would cry river of tears if they made it so. Every time I've destroyed an Ace I've managed to get HEAVY engine damage and started to kill it from distance. To be honest I fear his team mates vet 3 Elephant more than the Tiger Ace since you know you've won the game when you have killed it.
19 Nov 2013, 04:15 AM
#174
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

The Tiger Ace is a slow/big target for munitions strikes and rocket barrages.
19 Nov 2013, 05:58 AM
#175
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1042

Nice but a rocket barrage does nothing to any vehicle larger than a StuG. The Tiger also isn't slow enough not to able to escape for an IL-2 bombing run or the like.
19 Nov 2013, 07:14 AM
#176
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

What do you guys think about always getting "Heavy Engine Damage" when you get a successful ram/at nade?


I think this is a stupid idea and would render tanks completely useless.
20 Nov 2013, 12:12 PM
#177
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1162

You want to be thinking about IL2 bomb and ram.

Even if you only score a crew shock, that's enough time to bomb it, just call the strike just before your T34 rams.

Also, standard howitzer might be nice because it barrages for a long time keeping pios away, all the while chipping decent HP off the tiger.

You just have to make sure to damage it's engines first.

No kind of german air strike to worry about for your howie, so keep well defended with paks. If you can stop tiger getting to your base (hard part), you should be ok
20 Nov 2013, 19:26 PM
#178
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

You want to be thinking about IL2 bomb and ram.

Even if you only score a crew shock, that's enough time to bomb it, just call the strike just before your T34 rams.

Also, standard howitzer might be nice because it barrages for a long time keeping pios away, all the while chipping decent HP off the tiger.

You just have to make sure to damage it's engines first.

No kind of german air strike to worry about for your howie, so keep well defended with paks. If you can stop tiger getting to your base (hard part), you should be ok

Why only the standard howitzer. B-4 can do the job too.
20 Nov 2013, 19:54 PM
#179
avatar of ludd3emm

Posts: 292



I think this is a stupid idea and would render tanks completely useless.


I had the Tiger Ace in consideration, not all the other tanks.
20 Nov 2013, 21:07 PM
#180
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747



I had the Tiger Ace in consideration, not all the other tanks.


Same aplies fort the Tiger Ace. If we start to balance such core mechanic breaking units like the Tiger Ace with breaking another core mechanic, the game will become a complete mess.

The solution is the complete redesign of the Tiger Ace, the idea can be implemented in a way that fits the game, I'm certain of that.
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