Assault Guards are great. They're a dirt cheap triple Thompson squad, and that very low price (270 MP!) is enabled by the M5 bundle: you can't spam them.
If you removed the M5, you'd have to raise their price, and then you'd just have yet another call-in CQC combat squad. There are already loads of better doctrines that do that.
Assault Guards M5 HT
19 Feb 2020, 10:52 AM
#21
Posts: 3260
19 Feb 2020, 11:02 AM
#22
Posts: 5279
Assault Guards are great. They're a dirt cheap triple Thompson squad, and that very low price (270 MP!) is enabled by the M5 bundle: you can't spam them.
If you removed the M5, you'd have to raise their price, and then you'd just have yet another call-in CQC combat squad. There are already loads of better doctrines that do that.
Raising their proce wouldn't dissuade their use, as it is if you want 2 squads of them you are out a heap of fuel so a bit more MP wouldnt hurt that much.
#stalinwept
19 Feb 2020, 11:38 AM
#23
Posts: 3260
If the truck is to stay, it should provide something unique.
Again, that call-in is a leftover from the prehistoric times, when soviets were allowed to put down only 2 tiers and it was supplementing T4 builds.
Nowadays, HT serves no purpose in the call-in.
It hits at a much earlier timing than T3 in 1v1.
It was a joke when it was at CP5, but it got moved to CP3 a couple of patches ago.
Raising their proce wouldn't dissuade their use, as it is if you want 2 squads of them you are out a heap of fuel so a bit more MP wouldnt hurt that much.
But then you've just got another CQC call-in. If you want a CQC call in, pick a Shock doc. There are loads to choose from.
The M5/Assault Guard bundle's an interesting mechanic: you get an early M5 (but only one) and a dirt cheap CQC squad (but only one). If you get the timing right, you can pull a big power spike. There's no need whatsoever to get rid of it to make way for yet another generic CQC call-in.
19 Feb 2020, 12:15 PM
#24
Posts: 833
There aren't really any half track call ins that are really worth the slot
You've got maybe the UKF and USF for the meatchopper, but it's no luch or T70. Then you've got the ost 250, all these are OK.
Then you've got stuff like the UKF resupply half-track that nobody uses because you have to research bren tech before it can drop piats or lmgs defeating the purpose. And also stuff like the guards half-track that is pointless when soviets already have non doc access to the same half-track. Tacking it on just defeats the purpose of calling in cqb squads on usually tiny maps where mobile reinforcing is kind of pointless.
It would be nice to see a rework of half-tracks so they are made more viable. At the moment they are kind of ignored and unwanted in favor of light tanks. Maybe if they had some sort of timed AP ability for the MGs on front so they're not dead weight as soon as a light tank shows up, but this ability would be lost if upgrading to flamer or quad.
You've got maybe the UKF and USF for the meatchopper, but it's no luch or T70. Then you've got the ost 250, all these are OK.
Then you've got stuff like the UKF resupply half-track that nobody uses because you have to research bren tech before it can drop piats or lmgs defeating the purpose. And also stuff like the guards half-track that is pointless when soviets already have non doc access to the same half-track. Tacking it on just defeats the purpose of calling in cqb squads on usually tiny maps where mobile reinforcing is kind of pointless.
It would be nice to see a rework of half-tracks so they are made more viable. At the moment they are kind of ignored and unwanted in favor of light tanks. Maybe if they had some sort of timed AP ability for the MGs on front so they're not dead weight as soon as a light tank shows up, but this ability would be lost if upgrading to flamer or quad.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
19 Feb 2020, 12:43 PM
#25
Posts: 3260
There aren't really any half track call ins that are really worth the slot
You've got maybe the UKF and USF for the meatchopper, but it's no luch or T70. Then you've got the ost 250, all these are OK.
Then you've got stuff like the UKF resupply half-track that nobody uses because you have to research bren tech before it can drop piats or lmgs defeating the purpose. And also stuff like the guards half-track that is pointless when soviets already have non doc access to the same half-track. Tacking it on just defeats the purpose of calling in cqb squads on usually tiny maps where mobile reinforcing is kind of pointless.
It would be nice to see a rework of half-tracks so they are made more viable. At the moment they are kind of ignored and unwanted in favor of light tanks. Maybe if they had some sort of timed AP ability for the MGs on front so they're not dead weight as soon as a light tank shows up, but this ability would be lost if upgrading to flamer or quad.
Timing.
The USF meat chopper costs 240 MP in a faction that usually pays about 350 for an AAHT. It's also available early regardless of your tech path.
The Soviet M5 call-in hits at CP3, which is much earlier than its usual T3 timing. Don't underestimate its shock value, especially against Ostheer.
The UKF meat chopper arrives at CP2. With the changes to Assault Sections, it may well be outright overpowered now.
19 Feb 2020, 12:54 PM
#26
Posts: 833
Timing.
The USF meat chopper costs 240 MP in a faction that usually pays about 350 for an AAHT. It's also available early regardless of your tech path.
The Soviet M5 call-in hits at CP3, which is much earlier than its usual T3 timing. Don't underestimate its shock value, especially against Ostheer.
The UKF meat chopper arrives at CP2. With the changes to Assault Sections, it may well be outright overpowered now.
Like I said these are the best of the bunch. But they are still underutilised. In the case of the USF AAHT it can fight back against a luch, much more useful than the quad.
Soviet players already have the OP T70 that remains king of light vehicles, swapping it for a slightly earlier quad is just shooting yourself in the foot. Especially as MG units don't scale as well as cannons do as infantry unlocks b
Better RA bonuses.
For example place a vet obers squad in range of a vet t70 and vet quad. Light tanks will wipe them in no time because they ignore RA unlike the quads. Late game a quad might as well be shooting rubber bullets
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
19 Feb 2020, 13:46 PM
#27
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
Soviet players already have the OP T70 that remains king of light vehicles, swapping it for a slightly earlier quad is just shooting yourself in the foot...
Thus the solution is in reducing the power level of T-70...
19 Feb 2020, 15:11 PM
#28
Posts: 5279
It hits at a much earlier timing than T3 in 1v1.
It was a joke when it was at CP5, but it got moved to CP3 a couple of patches ago.
But then you've just got another CQC call-in. If you want a CQC call in, pick a Shock doc. There are loads to choose from.
The M5/Assault Guard bundle's an interesting mechanic: you get an early M5 (but only one) and a dirt cheap CQC squad (but only one). If you get the timing right, you can pull a big power spike. There's no need whatsoever to get rid of it to make way for yet another generic CQC call-in.
I domt wang it as a call in, just a buildable option in the hq once unlocked.i agree that the combo is great value, but i want 2 squads of them im shelling out far too much.
#stalinwept
19 Feb 2020, 16:22 PM
#29
Posts: 833
Thus the solution is in reducing the power level of T-70...
Ive pushed for this before but doing so could open a new tin of worms. T70 is OP but it's also the one unit carrying soviets midgame before they unlock seven man cons and can transition into late game. Especially with luch rush and OKW midgame as strong as it is.
Kind of like when Brits got hit with nerfs to AT Tommies, brens and the AEC. Then they had go be given a nondoc snare to be made viable again. Nerfing core units you always have to be careful.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
19 Feb 2020, 16:24 PM
#30
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Ive pushed for this before but doing so would could open a new tin of worms. T70 is OP but it's also the one unit carrying soviets midgame before they unlock seven man cons and can transition into late game. Especially with luch rush as strong as it is.
Kind of like when Brits got hit with nerfs to brens and the AEC. Then they had go be given a snare to be made viable again. Nerfing core units you always have to be careful.
Soviet do not need "carrying" the have some of the best win rates...
19 Feb 2020, 16:25 PM
#31
Posts: 3260
I domt wang it as a call in, just a buildable option in the hq once unlocked.i agree that the combo is great value, but i want 2 squads of them im shelling out far too much.
How do Shock Troops fall short?
19 Feb 2020, 16:31 PM
#32
Posts: 833
Soviet do not need "carrying" the have some of the best win rates...
I mean people said Brits were strong before tommies were nerfed and the faction fell apart.
Go watch the last tourney, especially the luvnest games and the spike with OKW map control before T70 rolls out. Then the after effect when it shuts down sidecapping.
It basically is the unit that carries the midgame around singlehandedly. There's no denying that and top casters even repeated this in their commentary.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
19 Feb 2020, 17:06 PM
#33
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I mean people said Brits were strong before tommies were nerfed and the faction fell apart.
Go watch the last tourney, especially the luvnest games and the spike with OKW map control before T70 rolls out. Then the after effect when it shuts down sidecapping.
It basically is the unit that carries the midgame around singlehandedly. There's no denying that and top casters even repeated this in their commentary.
Even if true crutch units are bad design that should be avoided. They destroy build variety and hide underlining issues. And that makes Relic buff other option thru the roof.
Quad fr instance is great vehicle and there are people taking about buffing because T-70 is better option. Well that would be a mistake.
If the power level of the T-70 is lowered and Soviet become UP other option can be buffed.
19 Feb 2020, 20:52 PM
#34
Posts: 5279
#stalinwept
19 Feb 2020, 23:14 PM
#35
Posts: 785
What if Assault Guards were brought in one of the soviet trucks from the campaign? This truck could then also function like one of the doctrinal Opel Blitz variants. You could also probably reduce the fuel or MP cost of the bundle, then.
Alternatively, someone mentioned they could come in a WC-52. A perpetually unarmed WC-51 that then functions in the manner of a resource truck or somesuch. (Or just a normal WC-51. Apparently these were also used, at least according to Wikipedia photos.)
Alternatively, someone mentioned they could come in a WC-52. A perpetually unarmed WC-51 that then functions in the manner of a resource truck or somesuch. (Or just a normal WC-51. Apparently these were also used, at least according to Wikipedia photos.)
19 Feb 2020, 23:25 PM
#36
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
It’s a lend lease doctrine. Make them come in with something from lend lease (yes I know M5s were USF made, but they’re T3 stock), something like a WC51 like in USF Mechanized.
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20 Feb 2020, 00:25 AM
#37
Posts: 3260
I dont understand
If you want to call in several squads of elite CQC troops, Shocks are better.
What's the benefit of making Assault Guards just another CQC squad? Is it worth the cost of killing off a now fairly unique mechanic and playstyle?
20 Feb 2020, 01:40 AM
#38
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
What's the benefit of making Assault Guards just another CQC squad? Is it worth the cost of killing off a now fairly unique mechanic and playstyle?
It’s a lend lease doctrine. Make them come in with something from lend lease (yes I know M5s were USF made, but they’re T3 stock), something like a WC51 like in USF Mechanized.
The benefit SHOULD be that they can upgrade with 2 elite zooks for 100mu OR 4x tommies for 90mu, and spawn with 6 SVTs. In my humble opinion
Makes them unique while being in theme to the commander
20 Feb 2020, 02:54 AM
#39
Posts: 833
Even if true crutch units are bad design that should be avoided. They destroy build variety and hide underlining issues. And that makes Relic buff other option thru the roof.
Quad fr instance is great vehicle and there are people taking about buffing because T-70 is better option. Well that would be a mistake.
If the power level of the T-70 is lowered and Soviet become UP other option can be buffed.
Yet the quad is a ok place. If you could read what I said I asked for a buff to vanilla half-tracks. An AP ability to do a bit of damage to luch or t70 (maybe eight or ten seconds of fire bring them down to 60 percent health) would help half-tracks not become dead weight as soon as lights are fielded. Think of the old Vickers in CoH1 that have the UC some chance of survival.
Let's not derail the thread into a T70 discussion because you're off topic.
Let's unite the CoH2 community and make sure racism is
20 Feb 2020, 03:29 AM
#40
Posts: 999 | Subs: 1
Assault Guards are great. They're a dirt cheap triple Thompson squad, and that very low price (270 MP!) is enabled by the M5 bundle: you can't spam them.
If you removed the M5, you'd have to raise their price, and then you'd just have yet another call-in CQC combat squad. There are already loads of better doctrines that do that.
this is excactly why unit bundles are in the game and IMHO should be there stay. they offer a unique way to to 'soft-cap' certain units while still making them attractive choices due to coming at a great discount. all you need to do is adjust your unit composition to make best use of both parts of the package. as for the m5, even though it may not be the best option to skip the t70 in every game the "free" quad can be a good alternative in certain scenarios and allow you to get a fast t34 instead.
still, i'd not be opposed to making assault guards buildable from the hq once t4 is reached, as the value of the m5 is arguably pretty limited at this stage of the game.
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