Tank Destroyer Poll

PzIV becomes obsolete once they heavy TDs appear since they can damage at range 60 with a probability close to 100%.

Lolwut?

Lolwut?

Once a USF player (or more, in larger modes) has 2+ m36s, building a P4 is pointless. If both M36s fire at the same time, the P4 is dropped instantly to 50% HP and forced to retreat.

All these threads about Allied TDs is solely due to lower CP requirements for heavy tanks and thus the heavy tank meta in the current patch. All these post are from people that play with Grand Offensive commander almost every game

Once a USF player (or more, in larger modes) has 2+ m36s, building a P4 is pointless. If both M36s fire at the same time, the P4 is dropped instantly to 50% HP and forced to retreat.

Well 2 M36s vs 2 vet 2 P4s is actually not that hard to win as Ost, especially if you have panzer tactician and can retreat the damaged one.

The key is getting up close and having munitions for blitzkrieg and smoke.

All these threads about Allied TDs is solely due to lower CP requirements for heavy tanks and thus the heavy tank meta in the current patch. All these post are from people that play with Grand Offensive commander almost every game

+1

All these threads about Allied TDs is solely due to lower CP requirements for heavy tanks and thus the heavy tank meta in the current patch. All these post are from people that play with Grand Offensive commander almost every game

No?

Let's imagine that all heavies were removed from the game; so the Panther becomes the heaviest Axis tank available. Nothing changes. The M36 would still be the dominant choice because it counters literally everything. Why get anything less?

The problem isn't that the M36 counters heavies effectively; it's that it counters everything so effectively that Heavies are the only reasonable choice. Two M36s can "2 salvo" a P4, meaning that they can delete a single P4 in about 6.5 seconds. A Tiger, on the other hand, has a 27% chance to bounce the M36 shots, and combined with its much higher HP pool, can survive for 35.5 seconds. That's a massive difference.

Meanwhile, this problem doesn't really exist with the SU85 - as shown by this thread. The SU85 has clear strengths and weaknesses, so there's actually some counter play available. Yes, if some P4s sit infront of the SU85s, they'll lose. However, the P4s are faster, and can flank the SU85s and easily win. Similarly, they're faster than Fireflys as well (and FFs have awful turret rotation speed).

Well 2 M36s vs 2 vet 2 P4s is actually not that hard to win as Ost, especially if you have panzer tactician and can retreat the damaged one.

The key is getting up close and having munitions for blitzkrieg and smoke.

How? The M36s have +15 range, accelerate faster, have a higher top speed, and 50% better moving accuracy. Provided the USF player is competent, there's no way the P4s could win; they wouldn't actually get within range of the M36s to begin with.

They had the same HP as M10s and StuGs, so they were still four taps for most vehicles.

Nope HP went from 480 to 640

M10 was 400 to 560

And Stug went through all kind of HP changes. From 640 to 480, to 400, to 560.

Vet 0 Su85 doesn't have issues dealing with heavier armor and with vet, it makes armor irrelevant cause it will only deflect the likes of Ele (Pen goes to 312/299/286)



Which one?
OH one doesn't improve combat capabilities so they will still miss and they still need to close the 20 range gap.
The heavier variation of Blitz has inferior numbers (so only relevant to PV). Making the PV, a much more expensive tank hunter requiring to chase (missing) for quite some time before killing it.

OKW one is much more tamer speed wise but instead gains combat capabilities but for a reduce period of time (10s).

As this stats haven't changed in a while, i think it should be correct:

Jackson
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30

OKW PIV:
Speed: 6 Accel: 2 Rotate: 30

OH PIV:
Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1 Rotate: 32

OH/OKW PV:
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30

Firefly
Speed: 5.3 Accel: 1.6 Rotate: 32

You're talking about nerfing its acceleration, if the player doesn't know how to stop before fire I can't help here.

Then again I'm not sure why a generalist medium tank that cost less and is already on the top food chain vs other generalist medium tanks should have a fair % of chance to take down a more expensive specialist tank destroyer.
Even enlarging the big picture to all Ostheer vs USF late game roaster, there is only one other unit that can go toes to toes with late game Ostheer and that's the Pershing.

Jackson being THE superior TD is a lie since the Jackson and Panther matchup is balanced and this is what matter today. People complain that their Pz4's windows of opportunity is reduced, well that's the same problem for everyone using medium tanks. Fixing Heavy tank problem is a first step but Jackson is still going to be there even if you nerf heavy tanks to oblivion because Panthers are here and from what we see in this patch, they're going to be even more here.

Once a USF player (or more, in larger modes) has 2+ m36s, building a P4 is pointless. If both M36s fire at the same time, the P4 is dropped instantly to 50% HP and forced to retreat.

Once a ost/okw player (or more, in larger modes) has Panther/2+ JP4, building a M4/T34/Cromwell is pointless...
etc.

I'm not against a nerf to M36, but that situation is hardly an argument for anything, unless it gets nerfed so hard it becomes soft removed from the game, it will still do that.
I'm really sorry that 280 fuel of pure at vehicles kills you 140 fuel generalist.

Once a ost/okw player (or more, in larger modes) has Panther/2+ JP4, building a M4/T34/Cromwell is pointless...
etc.

I'd agree with you on Panthers, but not JP4s. They have the same weaknesses as the SU85, which are fairly balanced in most maps against mediums.

However, even Panthers are beaten fairly easily with M36s, which brings us back to point 1:
The M36 counters literally everything. Why get anything less?

How? The M36s have +15 range, accelerate faster, have a higher top speed, and 50% better moving accuracy. Provided the USF player is competent, there's no way the P4s could win; they wouldn't actually get within range of the M36s to begin with.

Do you even play the game or do you look at spreadsheets all day?

It's quite easy to get in range of an enemy tank if you scout properly, there really aren't that many places where you can find them, usually behind the main enemy line. If you make a good flank with a minesweeper Pioneer it's really not that difficult, or if you have recon or stormtroopers or a sniper for scouting.

As OKW you have the IR HT, JLI, smoke recon and the always hilarious Jagdpanzer camo and hold fire approach.

Seriously, M36s don't have 60 sight, if you play your cards properly you can easily assault them.

As for the moving accuracy, I really don't give a damn since I can micro them to stop before firing and move afterwards so it's not an issue.

Do you even play the game or do you look at spreadsheets all day?

Usually a 10+ games a week, so yes, I do play the game a fair bit.

It's quite easy to get in range of an enemy tank if you scout properly, there really aren't that many places where you can find them, usually behind the main enemy line. If you make a good flank with a minesweeper Pioneer it's really not that difficult, or if you have recon or stormtroopers or a sniper for scouting.

As OKW you have the IR HT, JLI, smoke recon and the always hilarious Jagdpanzer camo and hold fire approach.

Seriously, M36s don't have 60 sight, if you play your cards properly you can easily assault them.

As for the moving accuracy, I really don't give a damn since I can micro them to stop before firing and move afterwards so it's not an issue.

This doesn't actually address my question.

Unless the M36(s) has an undefended flank (not happening on most 2v2 maps), the USF player is going to see the P4 coming; there's always an RE squad, rifle squad, or something on or near the flanks for this exact reason. Even if you know where the M36s are, and the USF player doesn't see your scout, you need to (somehow) get your P4s within 40 range of the M36s without the USF noticing. If they're paying attention, they'll almost always hear the P4 or see it breaking some objects; good players aren't surprised by flanking tanks.

JP4s can creep forward using cloak, but even two of them are only going to drop a single M36 to 50% HP after breaking stealth. That gives the USF player more than enough time to back away.

As for moving accuracy, it's just another thing in the M36s favor. Every time you hit "stop" on your P4, the M36 gets slightly further away. The USF player also doesn't have to keep track of the reload time, so that means less micro tax for them, too. That gives them the opportunity to (more easily) bring an ATG, Bazooka squad, or Rifle-AT grenade into the fight.

Unless the M36(s) has an undefended flank (not happening on most 2v2 maps), the USF player is going to see the P4 coming; there's always an RE squad, rifle squad, or something on or near the flanks for this exact reason. Even if you know where the M36s are, and the USF player doesn't see your scout, you need to (somehow) get your P4s within 40 range of the M36s without the USF noticing. If they're paying attention, they'll almost always hear the P4 or see it breaking some objects; good players aren't surprised by flanking tanks.

As for moving accuracy, it's just another thing in the M36s favor. Every time you hit "stop" on your P4, the M36 gets slightly further away. The USF player also doesn't have to keep track of the reload time, so that means less micro tax for them, too. That gives them the opportunity to (more easily) bring an ATG, Bazooka squad, or Rifle-AT grenade into the fight.

Mainly from a 1v1 perspective, this is a question of skill and timing.

Skill because this is a complicated assault to pull off. You need to find a hole in the enemy line, sweep for mines and spot (both with sweeper pio squad) and carefully bring full speed P4s through the hole to engage a single Jackson, kill it within 1 reload cycle (1st two shots from each P4), then pop smoke if they have it and blitz back to their lines.

The second question is timing. I like to make counterpushes when the opponent is attacking me because then their micro is focused on other engagements allowing me to get a few crucial seconds unnoticed where I gang up on an enemy tank before retreating.

Mainly from a 1v1 perspective, this is a question of skill and timing.

Skill because this is a complicated assault to pull off. You need to find a hole in the enemy line, sweep for mines and spot (both with sweeper pio squad) and carefully bring full speed P4s through the hole to engage a single Jackson, kill it within 1 reload cycle (1st two shots from each P4), then pop smoke if they have it and blitz back to their lines.

The second question is timing. I like to make counterpushes when the opponent is attacking me because then their micro is focused on other engagements allowing me to get a few crucial seconds unnoticed where I gang up on an enemy tank before retreating.

All that work, and if the USF player has a single unit that spots your approaching Pio or P4s it doesn't work; and/or you lose a P4 (or more). It also doesn't prevent the USF player from hearing your P4s or seeing objects being broken through the FoW,

All that work, and if the USF player has a single unit that spots your approaching Pio or P4s it doesn't work; and/or you lose a P4 (or more). It also doesn't prevent the USF player from hearing your P4s or seeing objects being broken through the FoW,

Well it’s risk vs reward, and my point is the M36 does not make the Panzer IV irrelevant whatsoever if the P4 is used properly and the tables can be turned on the M36.

One last thing to note is you can’t just assume your opponent will always micro properly and catching him during a moment of chaos can lead to crucial mistakes from him. You should also be prepared to bail if things go against you, which is where blitz and smoke come in extremely handy, but again this is all skill based.

Well it’s risk vs reward, and my point is the M36 does not make the Panzer IV irrelevant whatsoever if the P4 is used properly and the tables can be turned on the M36.

One last thing to note is you can’t just assume your opponent will always micro properly and catching him during a moment of chaos can lead to crucial mistakes from him. You should also be prepared to bail if things go against you, which is where blitz and smoke come in extremely handy, but again this is all skill based.

If you need to combine that many factors, in addition to luck (them not seeing/hearing you), as well as relying on the opponent not micro'ing properly, to just get a chance at destroying an M36 with a P4, then I'd consider that the P4 is made irrelevant by the M36.

When comparing units, they need to either be on equal ground, or have their ground 'equalized' by compensating price with skill.

The SU-85 is the best TD in the game, and is not due to range or penetration. It is because of the Focused Vision ability, it is a decisive skill when it comes to fighting against all the Axis tanks.

You're talking about nerfing its acceleration, if the player doesn't know how to stop before fire I can't help here.

Then again I'm not sure why a generalist medium tank that cost less and is already on the top food chain vs other generalist medium tanks should have a fair % of chance to take down a more expensive specialist tank destroyer.
Even enlarging the big picture to all Ostheer vs USF late game roaster, there is only one other unit that can go toes to toes with late game Ostheer and that's the Pershing.

Jackson being THE superior TD is a lie since the Jackson and Panther matchup is balanced and this is what matter today. People complain that their Pz4's windows of opportunity is reduced, well that's the same problem for everyone using medium tanks. Fixing Heavy tank problem is a first step but Jackson is still going to be there even if you nerf heavy tanks to oblivion because Panthers are here and from what we see in this patch, they're going to be even more here.

Because it's not about making the Jackson been weaker towards mediums or whatever but giving it a clear weakness compared to the whole roster of TDs. Heavy meta been a problem is not the only issue with Jackson. The mod team already acknowledge that the Jackson was OP but just gave it a +5fuel increase as a token nerf which accomplish nothing.
USF is overperforming on 1v1 but touching the Jackson is scary for those in the mod team who plays teamgames as we know that Jackson holds the faction on those modes. It's the same as applying buffs to OH because on 1v1 they are a on the weaker side but they are doing "fine" on teamgames.

Su76, Stug, JPIV, Su85, FF have clear weakness. Be it casemate, mobility, low penetration, HP, damage, RoF, turret rotation. The PV here been the oddball been a tank hunter limited by 50 range and excessive cost.

Look, the Jackson was BAD in the past, but it got plenty of buffs through different patch cycles. MAYBE it's time to rollback some of them.

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All these threads about Allied TDs is solely due to lower CP requirements for heavy tanks and thus the heavy tank meta in the current patch. All these post are from people that play with Grand Offensive commander almost every game

Lolwut?

Jackson 60td have been a topic long before the heavy tank meta.

If anything, the heavy tank changes do help wehr with a little breathing room against 60td

As still even by looks of 1.2 winter patch. A tiger is more efficient than brum+panther

While this poll is interesting, we cannot disregard the general faction that each TD has to work in. Of course the Jackson is too good for it's price, but that's because everything else in USF loadout does not reliably deal even with a P4.

I don't agree with this p4 assesment. I think even mod team don't balance around this.

Imo all agree that unvet Jackson can reliably deal with p4.

And the last nerf was fuel increase. That delays slightly against p4.

Looking at these 2 parts. I think we can tweak around them if concern is p4.

Decrease the fuel cost and look at vet bonus