Tank Destroyer Poll

Annnnd you're absolutely right. I think it was my bias USF bias that kicked in there, it really was supposed to be a trade-off.

So yeah, loses the really good AI ability for improved level of AT, which probably shouldn't scale with veterancy the way the 76mm does.

I think it's unnecesarily trampling on the M10, 76mm and E8, personally.

USF doesn't need the Jackson split, it just needs the Jackson to have an exploitable weakness like the SU-85's casemate turret or the Firefly's sluggishness.

That's difficult without making it slow and destroying its identity as a unit. The best idea I've got is making it 480 HP, but the problem there is that makes the KT, Elefant and Jagdtiger two-shot it.

It's not good against everything per point of fuel though. It's 185 FU.

It pulverises everything up to and including Comets in a close range brawl, but it's a fair fight against much cheaper tank destroyers at range.

The Jackson doesn't need splitting into a medium silver bullet and a heavy silver bullet. It just needs to be good at range and bad close up, like the other 60 range TDs.

Fair point regarding the panther.

As for the M36; it's essentially the fastest tank in the game, has 60 range, and the best moving accuracy. Keeping it at max range is really easy, so nerfing its close range would do nothing.

Fair point regarding the panther.

As for the M36; it's essentially the fastest tank in the game, has 60 range, and the best moving accuracy. Keeping it at max range is really easy, so nerfing its close range would do nothing.

A unit that has to stay at long range can't dive and brawl.

The Panther's advantage over the StuG is its ability to dive into enemy lines to secure kills. The casemate StuG can't do that because it's a casemate and can't let anything get behind it.

That's what makes the Jackson so powerful: it can dive and secure kills where the SU-85 and Firefly can't.

Take that away and it's a fast SU-85 without self-spotting.

The best idea I've got is making it 480 HP, but the problem there is that makes the KT, Elefant and Jagdtiger two-shot it.

Missed this before, but lowering its HP has been effectively vetoed by the balance team. As you pointed out, it makes it far too fragile vs. super-heavies, which are very common in team games (why it was increase to 640hp in the first place).

A unit that has to stay at long range can't dive and brawl.

The Panther's advantage over the StuG is its ability to dive into enemy lines to secure kills. The casemate StuG can't do that because it's a casemate and can't let anything get behind it.

That's what makes the Jackson so powerful: it can dive and secure kills where the SU-85 and Firefly can't.

I don't think its ability to 'dive' is entirely what makes it OP; it's the ability to push units off points in combination with the strength of other USF units, and in combination with it being an excellent defensive tank.

If USF is attacking, they can keep the M36 at max range and consistently chip away at enemy tanks (except super-heavy TDs), forcing them to retreat. If those Axis tanks back off, that means USF rifles (or other infantry) can come in and wipe everything else, since OST (and to some degree OKW, but much less so) is so reliant on vehicles to counter infantry.

Meanwhile, any counter-attack can be easily stopped, as the axis tanks won't be able to dive (can't catch up) the M36s, and as such, won't be able to provide infantry support.

Take that away and it's a fast SU-85 without self-spotting.

And 50% more moving accuracy (0.75 vs. 0.5)
And a turret
And HVAP
And incredibly good vet (325/390 vet 3 pen + HVAP!?)
And a crew
And the ability to bypass pop-cap

What's the downside?

Give USF stock EZ-8s. That unit is in ONE lack luster commander!

If USF is attacking, they can keep the M36 at max range and consistently chip away at enemy tanks (except super-heavy TDs), forcing them to retreat. If those Axis tanks back off, that means USF rifles (or other infantry) can come in and wipe everything else, since OST (and to some degree OKW, but much less so) is so reliant on vehicles to counter infantry.

But this is what a tank destroyer is for. It should be able to snipe at vehicles from range.

The problem is if those vehicles do pull back, it can dive after them like a premium med too.

It needs to be a slugger or a sniper, it can't be both.

But this is what a tank destroyer is for. It should be able to snipe at vehicles from range.

The problem is if those vehicles do pull back, it can dive after them like a premium med too.

It needs to be a slugger or a sniper, it can't be both.

When one of those vehicles pulls back, the M36 just follows it at max range, while the infantry (or Scotts, M4s, etc.) clear everything else. The M36 is so exceedingly good when kiting (sniping) that nerfing its ability to 'slug' isn't going to change anything (also how would this be done without lowering its HP?).

When one of those vehicles pulls back, the M36 just follows it at max range, while the infantry (or Scotts, M4s, etc.) clear everything else. The M36 is so exceedingly good when kiting (sniping) that nerfing its ability to 'slug' isn't going to change anything (also how would this be done without lowering its HP?).

The M36, SU-85 and Firefly are all good at kiting. It's how they're designed to operate.

The Jackson would not be the problem unit it is if diving it killed it like it kills the SU-85 and Firefly.

As for how to make it bad close up?

• Cut it to 480 HP, then give it a timed ability that gives it 0.75 received damage but tanks its mobility.

or

• Slow down its rate of fire (slashing its DPS) so it has to use its range advantage. This is how the Firefly works.

The M36, SU-85 and Firefly are all good at kiting. It's how they're designed to operate.

The Jackson would not be the problem unit it is if diving it killed it like it kills the SU-85 and Firefly.

Sure, except the problem is all the other things I listed that make it amazing. The Su85 is vulnerable to flanking and rushes, since it's a slow-ish case-mate; the M36 is not. The Firefly is vulnerable to flanking and rushes, since it's slow-ish with with a slow turret rotation speed; the M36 is not.

That means that if either of those units (SU85/FF) overextend on an attack, they become incredibly vulnerable if the axis player decides to counter-attack. The M36 doesn't have the issue; if you start pushing back, they just retreat while still dealing tons of damage (0.75 moving accuracy).

They're all supposed to be good at kiting, that I agree with - the problem is that the M36 has all the tools it needs to maintain that kiting advantage. There simply aren't that many times when you'll be fighting one at close range.

As for how to make it bad close up?

• Cut it to 480 HP, then give it a timed ability that gives it 0.75 received damage but tanks its mobility.

or

• Slow down its rate of fire (slashing its DPS) so it has to use its range advantage. This is how the Firefly works.

#1 has been vetoed multiple times; an HP reduction is not happening.

#2 Doesn't fix the problem, as I pointed out above. Also, dropping its DPS against heavy/super heavies may not be desired.

How about my proposed vet nerf ya?

Base jackson is fine since its rof isnt too destructive and pen doesn't delete armour frontally.

Improving sight and hvap brings it back closer to original intentions.

Ya? Ya?

How about my proposed vet nerf ya?

Base jackson is fine since its rof isnt too destructive and pen doesn't delete armour frontally.

Improving sight and hvap brings it back closer to original intentions.

Ya? Ya?

What is your vet nerf? I can't seem to find it.

In any event, the Vet 0 M36 is not Ok, either.
With 220pen at 60 range, it has a 100% chance to pen every medium (except OKW P4, OST P4J), meaning that it can 4-shot every axis medium. It also has its high mobility as well as high moving accuracy. A vet 0 M36 is still very, very powerful.

My suggestion is to remove its pen and rof vet bonus.

Replace them with +5 sight at vet3. Hvap to 240 damage at vet 2.

Relic tried to give it +5 sight earlier and hvap was 240 earlier.

Without the pen vet, at least p4 and p5 armor vet makes sense.

The +5 sight is similar to FF tank commander upgrade and su85 focus sight. But comes much later for jackson since it is a stronger 60Td at base.

FF gets the heavy 240 damage and sight at vet0 as long you pay for it.

Jackson still can do its role with base stats to reliably handle p4.

Imo most can agree that Jackson is pretty good at base stats already. It doesn't need pen and rof vet. Keep the base, change the vet, will not affect the complaints that usf can't contain axis tanks.

I was thinking of heavy crew repairs at vet 3 too, but i think thats too much.

What about Inverse acc curve for Jackson. Make it dramatically less accurate in close to the point it has a chance to miss p4(around 50% acc while moving) from close range. I don't really understand why does it need to have so many advantages at all.

The M36, SU-85 and Firefly are all good at kiting. It's how they're designed to operate.

The Jackson would not be the problem unit it is if diving it killed it like it kills the SU-85 and Firefly.

As for how to make it bad close up?

• Cut it to 480 HP, then give it a timed ability that gives it 0.75 received damage but tanks its mobility.

or

• Slow down its rate of fire (slashing its DPS) so it has to use its range advantage. This is how the Firefly works.

One does not have to make it bad close up.

One can simply lower its performance at long range with accuracy and/or penetration and/or ROF and/or range nerf so that it actually has a reason to fight at closer range in a similar way that Puma works. Then it will at least expose it self to enemy fire.

Currently it's optimum range is 60 vs every target while its able to maintain that range with its high mobility.

I will not saying what stat should be buff/nerf. I just telling.

Make SU85 a Medium counter
- - Since they have IS2 & ISU to fight heavy

Make Jackson a Heavy counter
- - Bring Wol become Medium counter

FF is already a Heavy counter
- - Make Comet a Medium counter

Make Panther a Medium counter
Make Jadpz a Heavy counter
- - Since they have various Tiger/Ele/King/Jad..



Heavy counter vehicle have greater range, damage (can be up to 240) and high pen but extremely slow reload, make heavy arent dare to stay for too long, but make medium can rush through and kill the Heavy counter vehicle.

Medium counter either have greater range but fragile (Wol, SU85..) or have greater armor to tank from Medium horde (Panther, Comet..)

Medium gets a slight buff when go in pack (perhaps just increase speed)

Heavy able to absorb/block damage from Medium & Medium counter, but not from Heavy counter.

Heavy counter vs Medium counter will be decided on situation (Jackson surprise shoot at Panther from faraway, or Panther surprise flank Jackson from behind)

I will not saying what stat should be buff/nerf. I just telling.

Make SU85 a Medium counter
- - Since they have IS2 & ISU to fight heavy

Reliability on doctrines is something that isn't coming back to this game and its HORRIBLE idea.

Make Jackson a Heavy counter
- - Bring Wol become Medium counter

Same as above.

FF is already a Heavy counter
- - Make Comet a Medium counter.

Comet already counters meds and counter should NOT arrive much, much later then unit its supposed to counter.

Make Panther a Medium counter
- - Since they have various Tiger/Ele/King/Jad..

As in first 2 points.
Also StuG and JP4 exist, forgot about them already? Want them to counter infantry? Lights?

USF only has Jack, Soviet has SU85, Ost has Panther. Its always they need to pick doc to properly counter something. (Isnt each faction lack of something that they have to pick a doc to fill in their weakness?)
Except Okw has Jadpz, Panther, King and Brit has FF, Comet/Church. Its really easy to balance since they have various units. Soviet & USF not much, cant just make SU85 & Jack both Heavy counter & Medium counter (like Panther & Jackson now)
- - -
If both side get a Medium, its up to both side who wins that Medium fight. If one get a Medium when one save fuel for Medium counter, 85 fuel later (35fuel tech & 50fuel more expensive tank) isnt much.

Make SU85 a Medium counter
- - Since they have IS2 & ISU to fight heavy

Oh yay. Countering doctrianl heavies with doctrianl heavies.

Because that's totally not how we ended up in this mess in the first place.

I hope the balance team don't double nerf the heavy tanks with timing and whatever else they have in mind.

I hope the balance team don't double nerf the heavy tanks with timing and whatever else they have in mind.

The problem is that they tried to shoehorn heavies into been viable on teamgames. It's like trying to shoehorn Super heavy TD to be viable on 1v1.