Winter balance (1/2020) feedback USF

Latest changes applied in red:

USF Ver 1.3

HEAVY TANKS

In order to make it more rewarding to kill heavy call-in vehicles, all heavy tanks, heavy tank destroyers and heavy assault guns now have the following:

-Recharge standardized to 3 minutes
-Cooldown on ability now starts upon death of the heavy tank

*Special thanks to community modder Sneakeye for providing the solution for this implementation.

Pershing

-CP requirement from 9 to 12
-Pershing Manpower cost from 600 to 640 (to bring it in line with other heavy tanks)

Similar to the IS-2 and the Tiger, the Pershing will receive a small adjustment to its near AOE damage, reducing the likelyhood that it will kill multiple infantry models with a single shot.

AOE damage near from 1/0.4/0.175 to 0.75/0.4/0.175
AOE distance from 0.25/1.5/3.25 to 0/1/3.25

Generalist Medium Tanks

In order to make generalist medium tanks more viable in the current meta, their durability is being increased by lowering their target size, making them more difficult to hit.

These changes should reduce the chance to get hit by 7-10% on medium to far range - ex: an 88% chance to get hit becomes an 80% chance.

The changes will not apply to Tank Destroyers and specialist vehicles based on a medium tank chassis. Units like the Sherman Firefly and Sherman 105mm will remain the same due to their role.

Sherman M4A3, Sherman M4A3 (76), Sherman M4A3E8

Target size from 23 to 21

M36 Jackson

In order to make the Jackson more vulnerable to medium tanks when caught out of position, its armor has be decreased.

Armor from 130 to 110

Airdropped Combat Group

-Manpower cost from 350 to 380

Cluster Bomb

-Added 1 additional second to delay before the plane arrives.

USF Grenade Package unlock

-Manpower cost from 150 to 100

Bugfixes

-Fixed an issue where the Stuart 37mm had higher aim-times than other vehicles
-Fixed an issue where Assault Engineers did no receive their -10% received accuracy at veterancy 1.
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1.1-12
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ver 1.0
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You missed a 0 on the nade tech cost.

I believe the new nade cost is still not enough. USF is the most ammo starved faction in the game not accounting for commanders, and there's just little room to get nades, especially considering the tech delays your light vehicle and infantry upgrades. The fuel cost needs a look or the nade cost itself.
USF is supposed to have smoke grenades as their counter to MGs earlygame, yet it's an annoying sidetech with a really steep cost. Not to mention only REs have smokes now.

Against good players rifleman nades are just a waste of ammo unless used on MGs in buildings. 1 nade = half a BAR, that also requires fuel to unlock.

Cluster bombs were really fast, but really not that good in my experience, they didn't wipe that much due to their nature of not hitting the same spot twice. 130 ammo for a forced retreat and a few models was debatable.

Compared to light artillery for ost that is also extremely fast, their use was limited. Maybe make clusterbombs actually mines like in the campaign?

Not sure why it took this long to get individual threads for the patch, but it's a good idea to have them.

For USF, the current state of the M36 has been heavily criticized for months, if not longer, and there's nothing to address either it, nor its counters. Similarly, the changes to the Scott/Pak Howie a while back made them RNG-wiping machines (I guess that's better than consistent wiping machines); they're still annoying to deal with, but now they;re also annoying to use (due to the RNG).

The grenade change seems reasonable, although a little unasked for. 50MP isn't going to make a huge difference, so I don't see this making USF that much better, but leaving them at 150mp also wasn't causing too many issues. I'm not sure where this came from, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

USF is the most ammo starved faction in the game not accounting for commanders, and there's just little room to get nades, especially considering the tech delays your light vehicle and infantry upgrades. The fuel cost needs a look or the nade cost itself.
USF is supposed to have smoke grenades as their counter to MGs earlygame, yet it's an annoying sidetech with a really steep cost. Not to mention only REs have smokes now.

Against good players rifleman nades are just a waste of ammo unless used on MGs in buildings. 1 nade = half a BAR, that also requires fuel to unlock.

I'd argue that OST is the most muni-starved faction, at least early/mid game. Being even vaguely useful with them requires dumping tons of muni:
fausts/MG42-AP, since AT isn't available until later, while allied LVs are available quite early
Rifle-nades, which while they have more range, have less AoE
LMG42, which is required for Grens to be viable mid/late
Med-Bunker, which is a mandatory upgrade (unless an OKW player goes med-truck)
Mines, Sweepers, flamers, flame-HT, schrecks, etc. are all early/mid muni-sinks as well.

Cluster bombs were really fast, but really not that good in my experience, they didn't wipe that much due to their nature of not hitting the same spot twice. 130 ammo for a forced retreat and a few models was debatable.

Compared to light artillery for ost that is also extremely fast, their use was limited. Maybe make clusterbombs actually mines like in the campaign?

The problem with clusters were that they deleted everything 'soft' unless the enemy player had perfect reaction time, since they hit the entire area at the same time. This was extremely problematic for team-weapons, since often their pack-up would take about as long as it took for the clusters to fall; this was extremely punishing for OST.

I hope not all heavy need all tech……and Pershing not strong like other heavy,no need increase cost

Not sure why it took this long to get individual threads for the patch, but it's a good idea to have them.

For USF, the current state of the M36 has been heavily criticized for months, if not longer, and there's nothing to address either it, nor its counters. Similarly, the changes to the Scott/Pak Howie a while back made them RNG-wiping machines (I guess that's better than consistent wiping machines); they're still annoying to deal with, but now they;re also annoying to use (due to the RNG).

The problem is USF has no other reliable AT option. The USF AT gun is complete dog shit above a vet 2 p4/p4j.
Zooks are a joke that struggle to pen mediums.
Riflemen need vet 1 for AT nade(ROFL).

I'm sure most USF players would like to not rely on the crutch M36 to fight armor, myself included. I hate microing that paper tank with shreks walking around. The AT gun needs a buff and then Jackson can become not a core unit for USF lategame. Maybe a sherman tweak is in order aswell, because that tank is very rarely seen.

The grenade change seems reasonable, although a little unasked for. 50MP isn't going to make a huge difference, so I don't see this making USF that much better, but leaving them at 150mp also wasn't causing too many issues. I'm not sure where this came from, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

The change is there because noone gets nades. It's a sidetech USF was balanced around at release, and now we're here years later.

I'd argue that OST is the most muni-starved faction, at least early/mid game. Being even vaguely useful with them requires dumping tons of muni:
fausts/MG42-AP, since AT isn't available until later, while allied LVs are available quite early
Rifle-nades, which while they have more range, have less AoE
LMG42, which is required for Grens to be viable mid/late
Med-Bunker, which is a mandatory upgrade (unless an OKW player goes med-truck)
Mines, Sweepers, flamers, flame-HT, schrecks, etc. are all early/mid muni-sinks as well.

Every faction has a muni dump for their core infantry, which are basically a necessity. USF and Ost are the most expensive at 60 ammo, but everything Ost can spend ammo on besides that is completely optional. They don't need sidetech for nades, so they can yeet them whenever. Pgren shrek upgrade is very situational as pgrens are insane without it, incendiary rounds are also incredibly situational as no light vehicle that can get owned by it sees play, except maybe clowncar. USF also has AP rounds on 50.cal in any case so the argument is moot. Ost has mines, that's completely true but compared to USF which has joke mines and no AI mines, I see that as an incredible upside.

Flame HT is a sidegrade, as a counterpoint I'll point to the m20 that has a MANDATORY 70 AMMO UPGRADE ON A 20 FUEL LIGHT VEHICLE(?????), that also relies on the smoke discharge that costs ammo to survive.

USF at gun having an ammo ability to even get normal AT gun penetration value is also something no other faction has to rely on.

I agree that Ost has a lot of options for ammo expenditure, but besides the gren lmg I don't see many necessary upgrades.

The problem with clusters were that they deleted everything 'soft' unless the enemy player had perfect reaction time, since they hit the entire area at the same time. This was extremely problematic for team-weapons, since often their pack-up would take about as long as it took for the clusters to fall; this was extremely punishing for OST.

I am all against offmaps that delete stuff without room for reaction, just saying in my opinion it didn't seem powerful enough to warrant a nerf, but I might be wrong.

The pak howitzer is still overperforming it does far too much damage ..

Bugfixes

-Fixed an issue where the Stuart 37mm had higher aim-times than other vehicles
-Fixed an issue where Assault Engineers did no receive their -10% received accuracy at veterancy 1.

Great job as always well done.

Pershing
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Another issue with unit always being available since USF buildings do not disable the call-in neither Major dying.

One should also have a look at Persing/Rangers combo since 3 elite bazookas are great AT support for Pershing and superb AI (or the third slot).

USF
Airdropped Combat Group

-Manpower cost from 350 to 380

A rather neutral change.
I would rather see the following changes:
Airdropped Combat group concept scraped and replaced by simply call-in not aidroped support paras that are beat cheaper that normal Paras representing the defenders of Baston. Maybe at CP2.

IR Pathfinder scraped replaced either by an upgrade to riflemen that provides bonus sight, call-in mortar barrage HE/Smoke and take up a weapon slot or a "new riflemen" type as previously described.

Cluster Bomb

-Added 1 additional second to delay before the plane arrives.

Seem to be in a good direction.

Since these change are made parallel with Ostheer fragmentation bombing maybe bring more inline CP and cost. 7 vs 10 and 110 vs 180.

In addition since you are looking at instant deletion abilities why not have a look at IR Pathinders artillery barrage. The ability is way too strong/expensive for it timing and undodgeable by Paks.

Why not simply replace it with a cheap mortar barrage with a cost around 60.

USF Grenade Package unlock

-Manpower cost from 150 to 100

There is little reason to reduce the USF tech cost more. If the grenades are not used is because their are "free" alternatives.

Cluster Bomb

-Added 1 additional second to delay before the plane arrives.

Seem to be in a good direction.

Since these change are made parallel with Ostheer fragmentation bombing maybe bring more inline CP and cost. 7 vs 10 and 110 vs 180.

In addition since you are looking at instant deletion abilities why not have a look at IR Pathinders artillery barrage. The ability is way too strong/expensive for it timing and undodgeable by Paks.

Why not simply replace it with a cheap mortar barrage with a cost around 60.

This!!

Why is this cheese not further looked into.

Is frag bomb worth 70muni more than cluster bomb?

IR arty is too fast for..reasons?
Major arty to an extend, is also really powerful for the costs.

Agreed with replacing the airdropped combat group with 340mp Paratroopers.

The Greyhound also needs to be 3CP.

Agreed with replacing the airdropped combat group with 340mp Paratroopers.

The Greyhound also needs to be 3CP.

Could probably go down even to 320 (from 360 paras) since they can not airdrop anymore especially if they Pathfinder change also takes place.

Every faction has a muni dump for their core infantry, which are basically a necessity. USF and Ost are the most expensive at 60 ammo, but everything Ost can spend ammo on besides that is completely optional.

I beg to differ here. First of all, what you mean by "besides that". Seriously. Gren/Riflemen 1v1 matchup dont end up well for grens (use the excuse of their cost or whatever, its always just excuses) unless they land a good rifle nade, before riflemen close up. Only the suspicion of a possible HMG42 hiding ready to support the gren squad can restrain riflemen to rush in. (That means 500MP only to "stop" a 280MP squad)

Munition dump is a rather bad term, if you ask me. Weapon Upgrades are either to stay competitive or to adapt. USF has bars/zooks for that exact prupose and they are 1 time pay only. OST weapon upgrades are specific and not optional and everyone here knows that.

Besides that all other muni investment are not optional, they are the game itself. Wanna go for mines? Munition. Need arty off map? Munition. TWP, HVAP, flares, incendiary rounds, white phosphorus? Munition! They all add complexity to each matchup, they turn the tides in matches and most of them are not optional at all.

The munition starvation has to do more with the broad amount of posibilities you can use your munition and how important those options are to succed in the game. Waiting to have 60 mun to slap a bar on riflemen is not. What i mean is utility >>> firepower when it counts on munitions investmenst.

They don't need sidetech for nades, so they can yeet them whenever.

Well, glad you mention it but it has NOTHING to do with munition economy. If you are so discomfort with paying a side tech, then you should be OK with grens able to choose Pshreks/LMG42/G43 combinations freely.

Pgren shrek upgrade is very situational as pgrens are insane without it

Pgren not investin muni is not a good example of what investing munition is, get it? Its also a T2 stock elite infantry. In case you forgot to mention it.

, incendiary rounds are also incredibly situational as no light vehicle that can get owned by it sees play, except maybe clowncar. USF also has AP rounds on 50.cal in any case so the argument is moot. Ost has mines, that's completely true but compared to USF which has joke mines and no AI mines, I see that as an incredible upside.

Extra pen munition is not as often used, because LV (the perfect target) are higly mobile and HMGS are static. Therefore any player will always avoid HMGS. They are very useful for tight situations, axis LV are far more rare than allied, thats why .50 cal feels "moot"

Flame HT is a sidegrade, as a counterpoint I'll point to the m20 that has a MANDATORY 70 AMMO UPGRADE ON A 20 FUEL LIGHT VEHICLE(?????), that also relies on the smoke discharge that costs ammo to survive.

First those 2 units are way too different from each other. Do not compare them lightly. A 251 is a troop support unit that LOSES its role to becoma a mobile flame truck. M20 only gets upgraded FURTHER. You dont need to pay 70 munition unless you want to play bullet sponge brick m20.

USF at gun having an ammo ability to even get normal AT gun penetration value is also something no other faction has to rely on.

"Normal penetration" is a very elitist term, so what are HVAP rounds for jackson? "Acceptable pounding"?
The ATG balance is a whole topic itself, and all atgs are balanced around opportunity / cost. Munition here is not even a good example. On the other side OST "needs" (by your terms) to use TWP to take out M36 with far less effective panthers (ATG+muni+Panther cost more than a single m36) but i see no one crying about that?

I agree that Ost has a lot of options for ammo expenditure, but besides the gren lmg I don't see many necessary upgrades.

Its because you need to redefine "need" by each faction gamestyle.

I am all against offmaps that delete stuff without room for reaction, just saying in my opinion it didn't seem powerful enough to warrant a nerf, but I might be wrong.

Because there are none of those in the game already, all have flares. The fast artyllery barrage gives enough time for all infatry to leave and only some of the slower TW can receive a few hits.

I hope we can exange further opinions on what is Optional/Need

Try to edit your comments and not just post 5 times in a row.

Cluster Bomb

In addition since you are looking at instant deletion abilities why not have a look at IR Pathinders artillery barrage. The ability is way too strong/expensive for it timing and undodgeable by Paks.

Why not simply replace it with a cheap mortar barrage with a cost around 60.

This arty is great against afk elefant users so it should stay as option against heavy tank destroyers especially in teamgames when u cant flank. From my experience when u cant flank only priest and pathfinder arty can be dangerous for elefant.
Vet3 pathfinders + zooks + pathfinder arty = dead ele

This arty is great against afk elefant users so it should stay as option against heavy tank destroyers especially in teamgames when u cant flank. From my experience when u cant flank only priest and pathfinder arty can be dangerous for elefant.
Vet3 pathfinders + zooks + pathfinder arty = dead ele

Then it should be unlock with Major...

There really isn't any reason to change the I&R arty (fun fact, it is basically the same exact strike as the 155MM in the WC51, which nobody is complaining about.) For the munition it costs, you're just not going to see it early game, and even if you did, it's not nearly as amazing as this thread seems to make it out to be. Locking it behind Major is unnecessary as well as counter-intuitive given the very description of the unit being "authorized to call down artillery strikes".

I can understand Recon Support is a bit buff at the moment, but it definitely isn't because of the I&R arty.