Panzerfüssiliers balance

?? I'm pretty sure I know my own design better than you. They were never meant to replace Volks, as we wanted to specifically avoid a Conscripts/Penals situation.

I am pretty sure you know my own designs better than me also, with all due respect to all the work you guys do, I am not sure if your designs are the best solutions to achieve your goals thou.

In any case you need to talk to the people writing patch notes:
"Panzerfusilliers

The way Panzerfusiliers are deployed has been changed to better match their role as an alternative mainline infantry to Volksgrenadiers. They will be slightly weaker than Volksgrenadiers at the start but have access to the Anti-Tank Rifle Grenades, slightly better combat veterancy, and more powerful upgrades, giving them increased power in the late game. This should make for interesting choices and compositions."

Definition:
alternative
"something that is different from something else, especially from what is usual, and offering the possibility of choice"

So it according to patch notes means replacing VG and not "supplementing" them.

And again as a solution I do not really see how making PF bailable instead of call-in makes better at "supplementing" instead of replacing VG so why bother with the deployment changes anyway?

Finally if Penal being a "alternative" mainline infatry to conscripts is a "undesirable design" why keep insisting on it for the last 3 years spending so much energy to make it work (having to change so many units) instead of giving up on it and choosing a better design?

Then you need to talk to the people writing patch notes:

Alternative does not necessarily mean replace. Alternative mainline only refers to their combat role and power level. Call them additional mainlines if you want to be so picky. It's said nowhere that they are meant to completely replace Volks. Quite the contrary, as "it should make for interesting compositions" in the last part of the description obviously doesn't refer to Panzerfusiliers completely replacing Volksgrenadiers. I should know, since I helped write those notes.

Alternative does not necessarily mean replace. Alternative mainline only refers to their combat role and power level. It's said nowhere that they are meant to completely replace Volks. Quite the contrary, as "interesting compositions" in the last part of the description obviously doesn't refer to Panzerfusiliers completely replacing Volksgrenadiers. I should know, since I helped write those notes.

We can debated semantics as much as you like, but how does changing deployment method makes PF a better "supplementary unit" since the majority (if not all) "supplementary unit" are call-ins?

Why spend so much effort in Penal/conscripts if their design is undesirable?

Alternative does not necessarily mean replace. Alternative mainline only refers to their combat role and power level. It's said nowhere that they are meant to completely replace Volks. Quite the contrary, as the last part of the description, because "interesting compositions" obviously doesn't refer to Panzerfusiliers completely replacing Volksgrenadiers. I should know, since I helped write those notes.

if "replaced" was used, that means going pfussies would lock out volks. Alternate means another choice of main line inf, when i too red the paragraph it seems to me pfussies is an alternate main line inf option.

Best OKW builds are 1/2 Volks with 2/3 Füssiliers then BGHQ or Mech. Then replace wiped Volks with Obers in late-game. So yeah, Füssiliers and Volks are used together. You should always build at least one Volk for sandbags and flame grenade. Then you use the first 160 muni for two G43 upgrades and you are set. Not sure why Vipper claims Panzerfüssiliers must completely replace Volksgrenadiers.

But I guess it's just Vipper doing Vipper things.

And for the 100th time now: Yes Panzerfüssiliers are good alternative infantry and no they are not UP.

Best OKW builds are 1/2 Volks with 2/3 Füssiliers then BGHQ or Mech. Then replace wiped Volks with Obers in late-game. So yeah, Füssiliers and Volks are used together. You should always build at least one Volk for sandbags and flame grenade. Then you use the first 160 muni for two G43 upgrades and you are set.

Not in 1vs1 according to tournament numbers

Not sure why Vipper claims Panzerfüssiliers must completely replace Volksgrenadiers.

I have never made such a claim pls do not put words in my mouth.

I have never made such a claim pls do not put words in my mouth.

Again it does because the hole point of the redesign was to become a "replacement" of VG and not a "supplement".

Now find a quote that I suggest that PF should become a replacement of VGs. I have never made such a suggestion and actually I am against "one units" builds so I have suggested multiple times that units should "bring different things to the table" instead of just DPS.

I am simply saying what the patch notes say in your quote.

The thing I have said and will continue to say is that if PF are there to "supplement" VG they can become more cost efficient by becoming cheaper and carrying less of punch.

I have literally no idea what you are even arguing for at this point.

Your point is: Panzerfüssiliers are UP and bad as an alternative infantry unit. And because of that not used.

My point is: Panzerfüssiliers are good as they are but need to lose the extra snare range because their utility is too much for a squad with their DPS and durability. They are used a lot in anything but 1v1.

Other than that I don't want to post in this thread anymore because it is as usual just you arguing semantics.

The thing I have said and will continue to say is that if PF are there to "supplement" VG they can become more cost efficient by becoming cheaper and carrying less of punch.

???????????????????

What would be the point of a unit like that.

Panzerfüssiliers are meant as an alternative for Volks. Volks scale badly and become shit in late game. That's why you can build Füssiliers instead to sacrifice early game power for snare and late game scalability.

I have literally no idea what you are even arguing for at this point.

Your point is: Panzerfüssiliers are UP and bad as an alternative infantry unit. And because of that not used.

And I have respond to a suggestion that they should loose one of their G43 that would make them very cost inefficient.

My point is: Panzerfüssiliers are good as they are but need to lose the extra snare range because their utility is too much for a squad with their DPS and durability. They are used a lot in anything but 1v1.

1) I doubt that they are used more than Penal the only other "alternative" mainline infatry so by comparison they are not that good

2) Suggesting to lose the snare instead of replacing it with another bonus is a nerf to unit that by design is meant to have more powerful vet bonus. I have simply pointed out that the unit does not require a nerf.

Other than that I don't want to post in this thread anymore because it is as usual just you arguing semantics.

Then do not post. And I actually have avoided arguing semantics.

???????????????????

What would be the point of a unit like that.

Panzerfüssiliers are meant as an alternative for Volks. Volks scale badly and become shit in late game. That's why you can build Füssiliers instead to sacrifice early game power for snare and late game scalability.

And according to you out lost VG are replaced by Obers.

By becoming cheaper the unit be built for it utility and not is combat performance. I do not really why one has to invest so much to get a unit with flares and a longer range snare...

1) I doubt that they are used more than Penal the only other "alternative" mainline infatry so by comparison they are not that good

This is too high IQ for me sorry. Doctrinal unit X is less used than non-doctrinal unit Y, therefore, doctrinal unit X is not that good.

200+ IQ statements were made here.

And btw: If you'd play this game at a decent level you would know Füssiliers are probably more often used than Penals considering most people go Grand Offensive and on the Soviet side Cons into T2. I rejoice when I see T1 builds used by my opponent because it's so much easier to beat than Cons into T2.

This is too high IQ for me sorry. Doctrinal unit X is less used than non-doctrinal unit Y, therefore, doctrinal unit X is not that good.

200+ IQ statements were made here.

I have responded to the same argument coming from katitof some pages ago. Sorry to see you have dropped to his level.

And btw: If you'd play this game you would know Füssiliers are probably more often used than Penals considering most people go Grand Offensive and on the Soviet side Cons into T2.

The reason people go for Grand Offensive is the Tiger and not the PF.

I play the game just fine (probably more than you) and the reason why people go for conscripts is simply because SVT/7 men are OP...

Penal where used almost exclusively before that.

When it comes to combat, G43 PF come later, need 80 munition, take a commander and even then they are not do that much better.

Penal where used almost exclusively before that.

When it comes to combat, G43 PF come later, need 80 munition, take a commander and even then they are not do that much better.

Definition of "not do that much better.":

Cheaper reinforce cost, recon option, actual grenades, much better scaling and sprint.

I dont see the issue with PFs. Even IF they were intended to be replacements for volks-which I doubt since they have different utilities- they still fit other roles very well.


The Su76 was changed recently to be more of a light vehicle counter. Yet it's still PRIMARILY used as emergency mobile AT against medium tanks.

Definition of "not do that much better.":

Cheaper reinforce cost,

25 vs 27 8% cheaper
on the other hand Penal can reinforce with up to 17 vis merge which is 32% cheaper.

recon option,

Utility.
Now read my post again:
"When it comes to combat, G43 PF come later, need 80 munition, take a commander and even then they are not do that much better."

actual grenades,

One of the worse in the game.

(It would be interesting to see how many damage where inflicted with PF grenades in the last tournament and how much with satchel)

much better scaling

Compare vet 0 Penal vs PF
and then Vet 3 Penal vs vet 3 PF and lets as know what is the difference and on what unit.

And keep in mind that PF are meant to be weak at start but scale better than other units.

and sprint.

Again utility not combat. Finally I do not really see how a vet 5 "ourah" equivelants make them OP

I dont see the issue with PFs. Even IF they were intended to be replacements for volks-which I doubt since they have different utilities- they still fit other roles very well.


The Su76 was changed recently to be more of a light vehicle counter. Yet it's still PRIMARILY used as emergency mobile AT against medium tanks.

Well according to some they need to be nerfed.

One has suggested to lose the extra snare range vet bonus and another to lose 1 g43...

This is a rare case of, "both sides are correct" kind of debate. I mean, vippers point is accurate and probably right if other person were to say it, but because he said it, people judge the argument in a different way.

Alternative is a vague term, it can mean both things, either exclusive alternative or optional alternative. That's why vippers right on his perspective, penals and pf are alternative mainline but both have a huge difference in design.

It's true that PF perform well under their own -faction, but it's true that when compared their strengths are not that much to envy for.

I think there is not a single reason to nerf them, because the last patch promoted early allied infantry buffs

Partial conclusion so far:

PF are mainline "alternatives" meant to supplement VG not replace them.

Penal are also mainline "alternatives" that completely replace conscripts.

Does that consequently mean that Penal design is bad as I have pointed out for year?

Does not also mean that Penal design (and Soviet) would improve also if they started weaker (with mosin) and where offered weapons upgrades (SVT) similar to G43 PF?

Does it also mean that PF would be better designed if PF where given 6 G43s (adjusting DPS) so that their DPS drop off was more linear?

"They were never meant to replace Volks"

but they do right now
just make them different,reason why they can replace volks is snare,give them better g43 and remove snare and job is done,this way they can't replace volks and will have point bringing in,right now difference in them like fusis total trash at start and 20% better than volks after upgrade

Right now fusis are just glass canon and before upgrade+vet they just glass,they pretty mediocre at cover to cover fights and excels at wiping as blobs and ambushing lower tier squads.
like they can take out rifles from ambush but if those rifles have bars and similar vet they just gonna trade most likely

And what do i mean by "give them better g43".. idk do something about them,for example if squad considered good for long range keep them good at long range make their scoped g43 with higher acc and less fire rate or something

Yes sherlock, a 0CP general mainline infantry is not going to perform as good as 2cp+ much more expensive specialist squads.

Yet they perform better than g43 stromtroopers.