No Penetration Buffs On Vehicles

Currently, some vehicles get improved penetration in their veterancy bonuses, and some don't. The vehicles that do are overwhelmingly the ones that already have high penetration. Lower penetration values tend to get accuracy and mobility improvements, offsetting their weaknesses rather than augmenting their strengths.

Because armour values need to be balanced with this veterancy-scaling penetration in mind, lower penetration vehicles like the SU-76 and StuG tend to get left in the dirt. Units like the Jackson and SU-85 gain penetration as they vet up, turning them into anti-heavy armour wrecking balls, but units in the same role like the Firefly don't.

Wouldn't it be easier to balance the penetration system if we replaced these penetration bonuses with something else? Veterancy is conveyed to the player in such vague terms that it wouldn't be a UX issue, and it'd make balancing armour that much easier.

EDIT:
The vehicles that get penetration buffs are as follows.

Light Vehicles
M20 Utility Car (+50%, Vet 3)
M15A1 AAHT (+30%, Vet 3)
251 Flak HT (+15%, Vet 5)

Medium Vehicles
SU-85 (+30%, Vet 2)
M4C Sherman (+25%, Vet 3)
M36 Jackson (+30%, Vet 3)
Jagdpanzer IV (+25%, Vet 5)

It's a pretty small set of units to change, but with the tanks especially it can have a big impact.

Replace penetration with slight accuracy and mobility buffs.

The ONLY way to balance 60 range TDs (if that's in scope, which I doubt) is to nerf target size for heavies and nerf accuracy for TDs so that they won't be affected vs heavies but will be less reliable vs mediums at max range. At vet 3, give back some or all of that accuracy so that they're reliable vs mediums again.

M20 Utility Car (+50%, Vet 3)

This one grants a grand total of like 1.5 penetration at min range and if I were ever going to touch it, it'd be to buff it. Like maybe a flat +2 pen at all ranges.

The rest idc. Never made any sense why AA vehicles got penetration bonuses.

TDs having them makes more sense since they currently have to fight kill-everything heavy tanks every game, though the M36 could probably do without it with HVAP.

TDs having them makes more sense since they currently have to fight kill-everything heavy tanks every game, though the M36 could probably do without it with HVAP.

But if TDs need it, why don't they all get it?

But if TDs need it, why don't they all get it?

Because TDs are only built to fight high-armor value targets?

I'm confused by what you're asking here. Do you mean that all tanks in general should get penetration vet or all tank destroyers?

Not so much to say they need it either, but in a world where TD penetration vet is the norm, obviously I think the Firefly should get it too. Panther? Maybe. Stug and SU76M? Idk. The rest already have it.

IMO Firefly should get some penetration buff with vet because right now it struggles against Tiger and even bounces on vet 2 Panthers pretty frequently. Considering the Firefly is supposed to be the "bad mobility, slow reload but hard hitting" TD it shouldn't have significantly less penetration than SU 85 and Jackson IMO.

Meanwhile, Jackson should get the penetration buff removed because of HVAP. Right now there is no point of using HVAP if you are going to penetrate anyway. Makes absolutely no sense that Jackson has 300+ penetration with vet when it has another ability ready to boost penetration even higher.

Medium Vehicles
SU-85 (+30%, Vet 2)
M4C Sherman (+25%, Vet 3)
M36 Jackson (+30%, Vet 3)
Jagdpanzer IV (+25%, Vet 5)

It's a pretty small set of units to change, but with the tanks especially it can have a big impact.

Should be more like

Firefly +20% Vet2
SU 85 +15% Vet2
Jackson +10 Vet2

For the Axis TDs it's harder to say because they have the ROF advantage. If they had more penetration it would quickly get out of hand. Especially for the JP4 as the JP4 has very high durability with 800 HP at vet 2, 230 armour, super small target size and camouflage (vet1).

So.... TDs pen 100% of the time meds, so pen vet is irrelevant here.

But..... reliably penning heavies is bad.

But..... heavy tank meta is bad as well, however hard countering them is... bad... too?

#coh2communityinanutshell

So.... TDs pen 100% of the time meds, so pen vet is irrelevant here.

While the pen is expected, the accuracy could go down a bit to allow for at least some medium play in late-game.

But..... reliably penning heavies is bad.

When the heavies are being reliably penned by a swarm of 2-3 (or more, in team games) 60-range TDs, yea, it's pretty bad.

But..... heavy tank meta is bad as well, however hard countering them is... bad... too?

Heavy tank meta is bad because every game degrades into it, because no other tanks (i.e. mediums) can survive the horde of 60-range TDs

#coh2communityinanutshell

The issue is both heavies and 60-range TDs. Heavies are too dominant against everything that isn't a 60-range TD, and 60-range TDs are too dominant against every other vehicle, because they need to counter current OP heavies. Both are bad for the game.

IMO Firefly should get some penetration buff with vet because right now it struggles against Tiger and even bounces on vet 2 Panthers pretty frequently. Considering the Firefly is supposed to be the "bad mobility, slow reload but hard hitting" TD it shouldn't have significantly less penetration than SU 85 and Jackson IMO.

Meanwhile, Jackson should get the penetration buff removed because of HVAP. Right now there is no point of using HVAP if you are going to penetrate anyway. Makes absolutely no sense that Jackson has 300+ penetration with vet when it has another ability ready to boost penetration even higher.

No.
FF is already in a better than good spot now.
It does 200-240 damage.
Its bad mobility is easily compensated by range and sight advantage.
As vipper shown, it has best mid range shot.
And its snare is already buff cheaper and more reliable. (lol to poor stug)
It is not even that slow. It has warspeed if you need it late game chasing tanks
It has higher chance to hurt Tiger than Panther hurt IS2.
Allies more cost effective yet again.

A pen buff would make it to jackson cancer level.

It is the SU85 and Jackson pen that needs a nerf. Sweet crazy vet bonus.

No.
FF is already in a better than good spot now.

Its not in a bad spot, but its not roses and sun shines.

It does 200-240 damage.

On a MASSIVE reload, meaning its by far lowest DPS TD in game.

Its bad mobility is easily compensated by range and sight advantage.

What sight advantage?

And its snare is already buff cheaper and more reliable. (lol to poor stug)

You wanted to say stug vet1 shot is dirt cheap compared to tulips.

It is not even that slow. It has warspeed if you need it late game chasing tanks

That's grasping at straws. You aren't going to chase anything with FF nor are you going to escape from blitzing P4s.

It has higher chance to hurt Tiger than Panther hurt IS2.

So? Tiger deals much more damage over time then IS-2.

Allies more cost effective yet again.

If you played allies, you'd be complaining about axis using the exact same arguments.

A pen buff would make it to jackson cancer level.

How?
Its already bad vs mediums and its worst of all TDs vs heavies.

It is the SU85 and Jackson pen that needs a nerf. Sweet crazy vet bonus.

Sure, we can replace pen with RoF again.

A vet 3 firefly has a faster time to kill on a panther or medium tank than any other Vet 3 allied tank destroyer.
Excluding abilities like HVAP and tulips etc. Also assuming all shots penetrate.

So.... TDs pen 100% of the time meds, so pen vet is irrelevant here.

But..... reliably penning heavies is bad.

But..... heavy tank meta is bad as well, however hard countering them is... bad... too?

#coh2communityinanutshell

Were it that simple, I'd agree with you.

But nothing exists in isolation. Were these extreme penetration values less so, you'd be able to bring down the armour values on heavy tanks without deleting them from the game.

The game tank balance will suffer as long as accuracy is an afterthought. Huge vehicles like Tiger and Pershing should be significantly easier to hit that smaller vehicles like a P4.

...
You wanted to say stug vet1 shot is dirt cheap compared to tulips.
...

Stug's heat shell is simply inferior to Tulips.

It actually reduces the DPS of Stug for 5 secs stun and 35 munition cost, Tullips increase the DPS of the vehicle and cost 40 munition each.

Stug's heat shell is simply inferior to Tulips.

It actually reduces the DPS of Stug for 5 secs stun and 35 munition cost, Tullips increase the DPS of the vehicle and cost 40 munition each.

Why would it be any other way?
Its a small fraction of cost on almost half as cheap vehicle.

Why would it be any other way?
Its a small fraction of cost on almost half as cheap vehicle.

You attempted to depict "heat shell" (stug's vet 1 ability) as cost efficient compared to Tulips. They are not.

Actually the ability is borderline UP and need to be looked at, especially compared to abilities like the "HVAP M93 Shells".

(edited to clarify)

Actually the ability is borderline UP and need to be looked at

Huh? How are heat shells UP? A lot more pen, more damage, fairly cheap and last half a minute (I think). What’s bad about them?

Huh? How are heat shells UP? A lot more pen, more damage, fairly cheap and last half a minute (I think). What’s bad about them?

PLS make sure to read and understand before jumping in.

The "heat rounds" we debating here is the stug's vet 1 ability and not the okw doctrinal ability.

You attempted to depict "heat shell" (stug's vet 1 ability) as cost efficient compared to Tulips. They are not.

Well, its your opinion, not metrics supported fact.

Actually the ability is borderline UP and need to be looked at, especially compared to abilities like the "HVAP M93 Shells".

Its not like StuG needs to fight 350+ armor vehicles you know.