COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

I just had a game where Sturmtiger shoot straight into the air (90 degrees) and the rocket disappeared. It was in the current version though, should I post it here?

PQ doesn't work for relic for over half a decade, let it go already.

It's not necessarily a bad idea though, and I think it would still be "ideal" if it could be implemented; but I agree, it's way too late for that 'benchmark' to come back.

That said, continuous power-creep is not a solution.

PQ doesn't work for relic for over half a decade, let it go already.

It is irrelevant to PQ, it is the simplest way to stop this continues power creep.

It's not necessarily a bad idea though, and I think it would still be "ideal" if it could be implemented; but I agree, it's way too late for that 'benchmark' to come back.

That said, continuous power-creep is not a solution.

RAW power creep is bad. Utility based power creep i don't think is bad.

I would argue certain elements called "cheese" constitute a certain degree of power in a unit and those had been removed from the game (therefore nerfing).

It's too easy to call everything powercreep when you don't remember how strong factions were on release. If you have something strong, then you nerf it and then you buff it to lower levels than in initial state, is it powercreep at all?

Let's "nerf" every faction to release levels. You would want the current so called "power creep" back in less than a week.

I dont think "if they survive long enough, they win" is a good idea.

Brits don't have a good medium tank, so why not make their premium medium good. And it's not like panthers don't exist.

A non-doc pershing that you can get multiple of at the same time?

No thanks.

Ahh... Just try it see what happens. OST and OKW have panthers so they can handle it.

Brits don't have a good medium tank, so why not make their premium medium good. And it's not like panthers don't exist.

I'm not against comet buff, but up to Pershing level ?

I'm not against comet buff, but up to Pershing level ?

how else can you justify the week early game of ukf.
Ost gets good mediums. Workhorse mediums are what keeps ost competitive. If you buff the cromwell you might as well make ost irrelevant in team games.

If you have something strong, then you nerf it and then you buff it to lower levels than in initial state, is it powercreep at all?

Let's "nerf" every faction to release levels. You would want the current so called "power creep" back in less than a week.

I looked into that - specifically for some recurring problem units: the M36, T70, Panther, and Infantry Sections.

Below is a change log for 'from release' to 'current live version'.

Show Spoiler

While I do think there's been some base stat power-creep, its less than I was expecting (or at least, less obvious). It also turns out its fairly complicated. At face value, some of these look pretty neutral, but there's some interesting details. For example, let's pretend the "Old" and "New" M36s were facing a 'current version' of OKW's Puma, P4, Panther and KT.

Edit: It was pointed out that I forgot to factor in accuracy. The following numbers have been updated, but still refer to old and new versions of the M36. I've also had to update the conclusion.

vs. Puma
Old: 100% pen x 63% hit chance = 63% chance to damage x 240dmg = 151.2dmg per hit = 3 hits - 1 reload = 2x 7.285s = 14.57sec
New: 100% pen x 63% hit chance = 63% chance to damage x 160dmg = 100.8dmg per hit = 4 hits - 1 reload = 3x 6.25s = 18.75sec

Vs. OKW-P4
Old: 68.4% pen x 77% hit chance = 52.67% chance to damage x 240dmg = 126.4 per hit = 6 hits - 1 reload = 5 x 7.285s = 36.425sec
New: 94.0% pen x 77% hit chance = 72.38% chance to damage x 160dmg = 115.8 per hit = 6 hits - 1 reload = 5 x 6.25s = 31.25sec

Vs. Panther
Old: 61.5% pen x 84% hit chance = 51.66% chance to damage x 240dmg = 124.0 per hit = 8 hits -1 reload = 8 x 7.285s = 58.28sec
New: 84.6% pen x 84% hit chance = 71.06% chance to damage x 160dmg = 113.7 per hit = 9 hits -1 reload = 8 x 6.25s = 50.00sec

Vs. KT
Old: 42.66% pen x 91% hit chance = 38.82% chance to damage x 240dmg = 93.2 per hit = 14 hits - 1 reload = 14 x 7.285s = 101.99sec
New: 58.66% pen x 91% hit chance = 55.38% chance to damage x 160dmg = 88.6 per hit = 15 hits - 1 reload = 15 x 6.25s = 93.75sec

Except for against extremely fragile opponents, the M36 has become more powerful and it has also gained:
+50% build speed (90s to 60s)
+20% acceleration (2.5 to 3)
+33% HP (480 to 640)

while only receiving a nerf to its vet 3 reload bonus (from +30% to 15%).

Ahh... Just try it see what happens. OST and OKW have panthers so they can handle it.

In 1v1 this might work, but in every other mode it would be OP. Multiple "Pershings" backed by SU85s and M36s, and of course, IS' blobs.

Get rid of the unintentional buffs to USF officers.

Get rid of the unintentional buffs to USF officers.

I wish they would do that but I am almost 100% certain they won't.

I don't think these buffs were unintentional in the first place and the bigger issue is that the officers and Riflemen share the same rifles. So in order to revert the buffs to the officers they would have to create a new rifle and I don't think they want/can do that.

They even mentioned in the patch notes that the buff is for Riflemen + officers by the way.

I wish to have USF Lieu & Cap to be powerful and heavily armed as their released.

They're nerfed to the ground because they're free squad when Unlock their tech, especially its possible to unlock both of them which mean 2 free squads.

I think its a better idea to replace building a free Lieu to unlock Platoon. With the Mechanized Platoon button that unlock the tech, then Lieu is just a unit that able to build in the tech, limited to 1.
That will get rid the free squads, then its will be ok to buff them back again.

At the moment, if you lose those free squad Lieu/Cap, its not necessary to build them again because they lack of utility

Can't we also make mortars a little better than they currently are? IMO they all underperform massively.

At least make the smoke barrage more responsive so it doesn't take ages for them to fire a stupid smoke shell in front of an MG.

Also maybe reduce scatter on the barrage? It seems very unreliable to try and counter MGs with it and that's the main purpose of a mortar after all. Not sure if it's good design that you try to barrage an MG and after a full barrage you still haven't done any significant damage.

I looked into that - specifically for some recurring problem units: the M36, T70, Panther, and Infantry Sections.

Below is a change log for 'from release' to 'current live version'.

Show Spoiler

While I do think there's been some base stat power-creep, its less than I was expecting (or at least, less obvious). It also turns out its fairly complicated. At face value, some of these look pretty neutral, but there's some interesting details. For example, let's pretend the "Old" and "New" M36s were facing a 'current version' of OKW's Puma, P4, Panther and KT.

vs. Puma
Old: 100% pen x 240dmg = 240dmg per hit = 2 hits - 1 reload = 1x 7.285s = 7.285sec
New: 100% pen x 160dmg = 160dmg per hit = 3 hits - 1 reload = 2x 6.25s = 12.5sec

Vs. OKW-P4
Old: 68.4% pen x 240dmg = 164.2 per hit = 4 hits - 1 reload = 3 x 7.285s = 21.855sec
New: 94.0% pen x 160dmg = 150.4 per hit = 5 hits - 1 reload = 4 x 6.25s = 25sec

Vs. Panther
Old: 61.5% pen x 240dmg = 147.7 per hit = 7 hits -1 reload = 6 x 7.285s = 43.71sec
New: 84.6% pen x 160dmg = 135.4 per hit = 8 hits -1 reload = 7 x 6.25s = 43.75sec

Vs. KT
Old: 42.66% pen x 240dmg = 102.4 per hit = 13 hits - 1 reload = 12 x 7.285s = 87.42sec
New: 58.66% pen x 160dmg = 93.9 per hit = 14 hits - 1 reload = 13 x 6.25s = 81.25sec

Except for against extremely fragile and extremely armored opponents, there hasn't been too much of a change; power has definitely shifted towards focusing on heavies (which it should), but its also gained:
+50% build speed (90s to 60s)
+20% acceleration (2.5 to 3)
+33% HP (480 to 640)

while only receiving a nerf to its vet 3 reload bonus (from +30% to 15%).




In 1v1 this might work, but in every other mode it would be OP. Multiple "Pershings" backed by SU85s and M36s, and of course, IS' blobs.

the old m36 has 200 damage not 240 tho

the old m36 has 200 damage not 240 tho

I thought so too, but the "March 31st 2015 Update" (Post #71, here) states:

M36 Jackson
The Jackson had issues dealing damage consistently due to its lower penetration. Our team has chosen to reduce the damage dealt by the M36 while also increasing the penetration; two changes we feel will offset each other in an ideal way. This will allow for the Jackson to retain its current role while also being a more consistent tank destroyer. This is an indirect buff to Wehrmacht Tier 3, in which every tank was hard countered by the Jackson in its current form.

Damage reduced from 240 to 200
Penetration increased from 160 / 180 / 200 to 200 / 220 /240
AP rounds penetration increased from 220 / 250 / 280 to 240 / 270 / 300

It's possible that the notes are incorrect, since there are a few times where the same notes are made multiple times in a row, but I can't be sure.

snip

Jackson: it was the least problematic unit in the USF roster and the reason the faction was "crap" in teamgames (mostly 3v3+). USF was not "good" if the game dragged to the late game in 2v2 above (outside of P47 and Rifles) but completely overrun Axis (OH mostly) in 1v1.

T70: it had crush. Nothing more to add.

PV: all OH vehicles were broken once they got to vet 2. The Skdfz FHT once it got vet 2 was a mini mobile KV8. Games didn't go long with FHT rush vs T70 rush.

IS: they had crap early game but they were utterly bonkers on late game with 5 man double bren.

NOT every single unit in the roster was stronger (Heavy tanks were "bad" but conversely super heavies were broken), but the ones that were, were obnoxiously strong. Not necessarily through raw stats but abilities.

You also need to remember that the game worked differently. There were explosive and flamer criticals, so the performance wasn't uniform.

the old m36 has 200 damage not 240 tho

I think it was 240

https://www.coh2.org/topic/16753/tank-penetration-vs-range-graph-and-statistics
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IX68mtMEFLUVZCJpdgLxtm9cLajZATNRwISihru8rZM/edit#gid=16

Can't we also make mortars a little better than they currently are? IMO they all underperform massively.

At least make the smoke barrage more responsive so it doesn't take ages for them to fire a stupid smoke shell in front of an MG.

Also maybe reduce scatter on the barrage? It seems very unreliable to try and counter MGs with it and that's the main purpose of a mortar after all. Not sure if it's good design that you try to barrage an MG and after a full barrage you still haven't done any significant damage.

I'm down for any buff to mortars if it's only on barrage/smoke.

Can't we also make mortars a little better than they currently are? IMO they all underperform massively.

At least make the smoke barrage more responsive so it doesn't take ages for them to fire a stupid smoke shell in front of an MG.

Also maybe reduce scatter on the barrage? It seems very unreliable to try and counter MGs with it and that's the main purpose of a mortar after all. Not sure if it's good design that you try to barrage an MG and after a full barrage you still haven't done any significant damage.

+1 Especially on the topic of smoke delivery

"barrage" trades accuracy for RoF so it's almost not worth putting in the micro and just let auto fire take over. I'd like it more if the additional input made it slightly more worth it.

Any mortar buff will be indirect nerf to wehr static slower plays. So no.

Unless the mg42 and pak get some mobility bonus at vet, same for grens, some mid range moving dps vet

But then power creep..

I thought so too, but the "March 31st 2015 Update" (Post #71, here) states:



It's possible that the notes are incorrect, since there are a few times where the same notes are made multiple times in a row, but I can't be sure.

that's the pre 2015 it had awfull pen back then, it could not even pen a p4 reliably

Any mortar buff will be indirect nerf to wehr static slower plays. So no.

Noobs aren't taken into account when it comes to balancing, so this isn't argument.

Unless the mg42 and pak get some mobility bonus at vet, same for grens, some mid range moving dps vet

Why?
Allies didn't get mobility buffs when turbomortar reigned supreme, in fact opposite happened, they had their mobility lowered by a lot by increasing setup times and removing mobility abilities.

But then power creep..

The irony, given opposite happened to allied team weapons.