COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

Take your pick:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/103324/state-of-the-sturmtiger/page/2#post_id797856

Reverting the mutual exclusiveness with the Tiger II is not unreasonable to me, I don't really agree with that either (wasn't on the team yet when that was done).

XP is already way lower than the only comparable unit, the AVRE, at 1400/2800/5600/etc vs 2020/4040/8080. Furthermore the Sturmtiger can have an easier time gathering veterancy by hitting vehicles or even scraping them, because it deals a lot more damage to vehicles than the AVRE does. Not sure why you think it should be even lower.

Its vet 1 ability was just changed to something much better.

I don't think bringing back world piercing is a good idea. The game needs less cheese, not more. It'd be a poor solution that only benefits the user, while making the experience for the receiver significantly worse.


A casemate tank firing a huge rocket is simply never going to be able to be competitively viable (without being overpowered). It's an illusion that it could ever be balanced. It can't. It will always be either overpowered or underpowered, just like similar units like the B4. Relic should have never put a unit like this in the game, but we're stuck with it now. The least we can do is making sure it's at least good enough to use for fun in (casual) automatches, which it is right now as long as the player knows a thing or two about how to aim it. And it'll get a bit better with the added utility and power of the revamped vet 1 ability.

Nope. Brits needed more help than anyone. And heavy meta is the biggest issue in the game right now

u are wrong brumbar needs help more than anything

Nope. Brits needed more help than anyone. And heavy meta is the biggest issue in the game right now

I remember you said the section are fine right now, while this patch doesn't do anything to help the OTHER units in UKF while likely overbuffing sections again.

I remember you said the section are fine right now, while this patch doesn't do anything to help the OTHER units in UKF while likely overbuffing sections again.

It adds medics to UKF's HQ. That's a game changer for non-Section builds.

I remember you said the section are fine right now, while this patch doesn't do anything to help the OTHER units in UKF while likely overbuffing sections again.

Buffing sections is easier than redesigning the faction. And they also added a new unit to the roster...

It adds medics to UKF's HQ. That's a game changer for non-Section builds.

^Like this is probably about as much redesigning as they can get away with

On the topic of the IR Halftrack, we would highly appreciate some tests or replays and proper suggestions about possible improvements. These are first iteration changes that are a proof of concept most of all. As volunteers we don't always have time to extensively test all changes ourselves and need the community to provide more data to finetune values, and this is such a case.

General ideas for IR HT improvement:

• Simply increase the vision to match the length of the visible search light that scans the map.
  
• Replace the 'Detection' ability (it will not see any use) with either a passive aura or AOE timed buff to friendly units near by that increases accuracy or something along those lines. Would benefit things like ISGs, TDs, LEFH, etc.
  
• Give the IR HT 5 vet levels and shared vet gain in a large radius, each vet level could add utility abilities (limited range recon flares or single pass plane, camouflage, long range dummy flares, ability to reinforce inf, etc.) or additional bonuses to friendly units nearby (reload, scatter, sight range, etc.).
  

On the topic of the IR Halftrack, we would highly appreciate some tests or replays and proper suggestions about possible improvements. These are first iteration changes that are a proof of concept most of all. As volunteers we don't always have time to extensively test all changes ourselves and need the community to provide more data to finetune values, and this is such a case.

well I not much replay cause 1 everyone in their right mind will just avoid the unit 2 it has no combat ability too test

I did post screen shoot of the difference with kubel , the ability costing mun and being timed is just stupid if kubel can do it for free on the move

My suggestion are simple : 1) make it bypass line of sight and reduce the cost to 5 2) give it a role other than recon, reinforce or buffing near troops 3) replace it with something else 250, mortar half truck etc

Again right now it's give less vision than a scooped vehicle and the ability is overshadowed by kubel , all other recon vehicle (t70 valentine , etc ) do a bette job at recon than it while keeping veterancy and weapons

Officer can repair buildings when u pick cancer regiment

General ideas for IR HT improvement:

• Replace the 'Detection' ability (it will not see any use) with either a passive aura or AOE timed buff to friendly units near by that increases accuracy or something along those lines. Would benefit things like ISGs, TDs, LEFH, etc.
  

Thematically, I like this suggestion. It would make intuitive sense that nearby units would have increased accuracy with the searchlight helping spot enemy units, and it gives it a meaningful utility that could justify its cost. I just wonder if things would get cheesey in team games if you had multiple searchlights and their auras stacked.

Again right now it's give less vision than a scooped vehicle and the ability is overshadowed by kubel , all other recon vehicle (t70 valentine , etc ) do a bette job at recon than it while keeping veterancy and weapons

I ask for decent feedback and what I get is a bunch of misinformation.

Recon scopes do not give better sight, they give the same amount of sight (35 range + 100% = 70) for anything that isn't a 222 or a 251. It's a doctrinal ability and these vehicles are significantly more expensive. This is not much of an argument.

Furthermore "all recon vehicles" do not do a better job. Most only have 50 sight range, and need a high amount of veterancy to get 60-65. The T-70s recon mode sight mode was nerfed to be a maximum of 68,5 (which also requires high veterancy), which is less than the Uhu's current value of 70. The Valentine has 35 sight range, and needs to deactivate its gun to get an additional 50%, for a total of 52,5 sight range. The only advantage these two have is providing 360 degrees sight, but honestly that's rarely useful besides from occasionally spotting a flanking attempt, as their recon modes are almost exclusively used to spot the frontline.

Do not forget that the Uhu's recon abilities will still have to be balanced for its very cheap price.

• Simply increase the vision to match the length of the visible search light that scans the map.

Do note that the search light's range was a whopping 120. The highest sight range for any other unit is 91 for a vetted 222/251 with spotting scopes, and honestly those are borderline overpowered (and they cost significantly more and require a doctrinal upgrade on top of needing to be highly vetted). Range can go up for sure, but definitely nowhere near as high as 120.

Then why can't brits use UC's, mg's and snipers instead of crying about how their better grens can't deal with weaker assault infantry????

Because fully upgraded sections do not cost 240mp and 60muni max.

I ask for decent feedback and what I get is a bunch of misinformation.

Recon scopes do not give better sight, they give the same amount of sight (35 range + 100% = 70) for anything that isn't a 222 or a 251. It's a doctrinal ability and these vehicles are significantly more expensive. This is not much of an argument.

Furthermore "all recon vehicles" do not do a better job. Most only have 50 sight range, and need a high amount of veterancy to get 60-65. The T-70s recon mode sight mode was nerfed to be a maximum of 68,5, which is less than the Uhu's current value of 70. The Valentine has 35 sight range, and needs to deactivate its gun to get an additional 50%, for a total of 52,5 sight range. The only advantage these two have is providing 360 degrees sight, but honestly that's rarely useful besides from occasionally spotting a flanking attempt, as their recon modes are almost exclusively used to spot the frontline.

Do not forget that the Uhu's recon abilities will still have to be balanced for its very cheap price.

no they do give better sight it's 360 for scopes and 120 degrees for ir HT

Also u forget said recon unit can do so on The move without wating a set up time , they are fast or are much more durable, and don't give away their position to the enemy like IR HT

On the topic of the IR Halftrack, we would highly appreciate some tests or replays and proper suggestions about possible improvements. These are first iteration changes that are a proof of concept most of all. As volunteers we don't always have time to extensively test all changes ourselves and need the community to provide more data to finetune values, and this is such a case.

I've only done tests, so no replays (I can never find a game with the mod up, anyway).

The main issue right now is that the IRHT is basically a worse version OST's "Scope" upgrade, but as a dedicated unit, and with a worse version of the Kubel's vet 1 ability. On paper this doesn't seem too bad, but it just doesn't offer the same utility once you've factored in the price.

Firstly, the vision part. The OST "scope" on something like a 222, 251, or even Stug/P4 offers exactly the same distance of vision, but 3x the area (since the IRHT is only 120 degrees vs. scopes 360). Then you have price; the OST scope is a 60-muni upgrade (that doesn't lock anything out), whereas the IRHT is a 200mp/10f/5pop unit. Then there's the utility; the scope upgrade adds utility to an existing unit. A P4 with a 'scope' is still going to be a good generalist-medium tank, and a 222 can still shoot at planes, snipers, etc. The IRHT can do nothing else other than provide that 120-degree vision cone, yet its use-case (i.e. where you can put it on the map) is exactly the same.

/edit: Yes, we're comparing a non-doc unit to a doc-locked upgrade, but I can't think of any other case in the game where a 60-muni upgrade is 3x better than a 200mp/10f/5pop unit.

Next, there's the 'detection' ability. I'm not entirely sure on the range (there's nothing in the notes), but I assume it's the same as Kubel. This is just bad; getting a kubel to vet 1 isn't a massive challenge, and the kubel's detection is free and lasts indefinitely when toggled. If you happen to have a vet 1 kubel lying around, there's literally no reason to ever use this ability.



Suggestions:

1-A. Increase the vision range; the vision cone needs to be better than 1/3rd of a 60-muni upgrade. I would suggest bumping it up to 85, if not slightly more. The only risk here is that this may provide incredible synergy with the JT and Ele.

1-B. Alternatively, give the IRHT shared-vet. The vision cone could start at 70, but increase by +5 for every level of vet (or something similar).

2. Make 'detection' a vet 0 passive that's always on. At least this way, you can replace a lost vet 1 kubel. Alternatively, massively increase its' range (110+), while keeping everything else the same.

3. If possible, have the (still active) "search cone" do something. Perhaps it could give a debuff to units that are visible and within the cone, but with a very short duration (3-5 seconds).

Some of these suggestions would need to come along with a price increase.

I ask for decent feedback and what I get is a bunch of misinformation.


Do note that the search light's range was a whopping 120. The highest sight range for any other unit is 91 for a vetted 222/251 with spotting scopes, and honestly those are borderline overpowered (and they cost significantly more and require a doctrinal upgrade on top of needing to be highly vetted). Range can go up for sure, but definitely nowhere near as high as 120.

It's easier to start from high and toning down than starting low and toning up.

Leave the vision at 120 range in a cone and scale down from there.

When did i say can rifles were problematic. The truth is i was severely wrong on what weapon they use, and I am ashamed and sorry.
However here is the thing section are like volks(now more so ok in attack and strong in defense) so the price of ass sections should be like sturms or even penals.

Edit the wrong stats out or i'll invis the comment later.

No. I use Tiger all the time in 2v2 and when I have the 230 fuel for Tiger and T4 up it's usually 10-11CP unless I skipped all light vehicles and the enemy had no map control.

Just the last game I played 5 minutes ago was like that. I went Flak HT -> T4 -> Tiger and when I had the fuel for Tiger I had close to 13 CP even though we had more map control. Then my Tiger had like 35 kills in the next 10 minutes including enemy tanks and it was GG. In that game the 11 CP change wouldn't have changed anything.

Unless heavy tanks get their AOE reduced we will keep seeing them every game.

But what is wrong with heavy tanks in every game?

Did the allies build enough ATg or 60Td to stop you?

It is strange why some say Tiger is so OP. I dont get it.

But i agree push them some CP back, but keep the performance.

So, how about this: Heavies require 13 CPs and T4.
AND
CPs count up faster in team games: maybe 10% for 3v3s, and 20% for 4v4s.

The 13CP heavy timing of the past was late for their performance, but all of them have been buffed since then. They can be late again, too.

The current (live) tech requirements are good and needed. But it's already a little confusing and adding more arcane requirements like "all structures built" just makes the design less elegant.

The slower CP gain relative to tech is a root cause of balance issues across game sizes: speeding it up for larger gamemodes means there don’t have to be as many requirement gymnastics to make the timing acceptable in all modes.

CPs count up faster in team games: maybe 10% for 3v3s, and 20% for 4v4s.

I think it's been said that this isn't possible. All game rules (income, prices, rates, etc.) have to be the same in all modes.

2 suggestions for ost ::

1 - Give panther better moving accuracy. revert back to 0.65 instead of 0.5

2 - swap vet2 and vet3 of stug G

u are wrong brumbar needs help more than anything

The Brummbar would probably be fine if they sped up its projectile like the KV-2.

Then it could actually hit things.

no they do give better sight it's 360 for scopes and 120 degrees for ir HT

He literally adressed this exact point in his post. And scopes are a doc upgrade for a 30 fuel unit

Also u forget said recon unit can do so on The move without wating a set up time , they are fast or are much more durable, and don't give away their position to the enemy like IR HT

Pretty sure the guy working on the mod doesn't need you to point out to him that the IRHT needs to be stationary

A good idea for the ability imo would be to make the vision bypass LoS blockers for 30 seconds or something? Along with the current map detection