Stats from the WCS 2019 2.0 - Siphon X version

USF -> fine
OST -> fix T4 and help in LV phase
OKW -> need buff if Tiger is nerfed

UKF -> need a lot
SOV -> nerf IS2 and late game economy

Fixed

Fixed

I didn't write like that

Why are you changing my writing?

OST t4 is all right
It's just that you don't have to use it because tigers can do everything

Back to topic. It is very clear that OST and UKF need some love. Buff them OR leave them untouched and nerf Sovs and USF. Either way, the patch team need to make it urgently because OST keep losing 1v1 games and UKF are almost never picked in 1v1.

USF -> fine
OST -> fine or nerf Pzgrenadier
OKW -> fine

UKF -> need whole wise support
SOV -> nerf 7man cons

This is the question we're left at, right now; and it's a fairly important for the 'feel' of the game. I'll admit, the current OKW vs. Sov/USF match-up seems fairly solid, so 'buffing' OST/UKF is probably the easier thing to do. However, this just means further increasing power-creep in the game, which results in a faster game over-all.

So, do we buff OST/UKF and increase the overall 'combat' speed of the game, or do we nerf OKW/Sov/USF, and keep OST's current power-level as the benchmark?

My choice would be to nerf OKW/USF/Sov, since I'm getting a bit tired of the slow-but-steady power-creep since WFA; but I really think this is going to require input from the community as a whole to decide on (the direction, not the actual adjustments).

snip

Do you realise how bad this makes you look.

Penals AI remains useful as long as they are vet 3.
Penals with PTRS remains useful as a mega snare unit as long as you don't need to buy the PTRS pass the 10min mark.

With all that been said, Conscripts, without the 7man upgrade and weapon upgrade, scale better into the late game, because the late game doesn't revolve around units fighting in cover with only small arm fire weapon.
Cons are a far better unit to replace lost Penals in the late game.

Scaling is not just DPS + RA + Vet bonuses. Scaling is the whole package of:
-DPS
-Size
-Vet
-Weapon upgrades
-Grenades
-Reinforce cost and speed
-Snares
-AT capabilities
-Utility (sandbag, bunker, vision, mines, repair, cammo, etc.)

You know there is a difference between been great, average, niche and bad.
Great is rifles.
Average/niche are penals, because the alternative T0 non doctrinaly is better.
Bad are units like Kubels and M3s.

PD: i consider that if Penals need a nerf, it's not in the unit per se but around forcing them to tech for upgrades.

Since there is already a Soviets state thread, i would rather this one focused on something else than them, specially on a non issue (or at least non quick concerning one).

This is the question we're left at, right now; and it's a fairly important for the 'feel' of the game. I'll admit, the current OKW vs. Sov/USF match-up seems fairly solid, so 'buffing' OST/UKF is probably the easier thing to do. However, this just means further increasing power-creep in the game, which results in a faster game over-all.

So, do we buff OST/UKF and increase the overall 'combat' speed of the game, or do we nerf OKW/Sov/USF, and keep OST's current power-level as the benchmark?

My choice would be to nerf OKW/USF/Sov, since I'm getting a bit tired of the slow-but-steady power-creep since WFA; but I really think this is going to require input from the community as a whole to decide on (the direction, not the actual adjustments).

THere was no "steady", more like an ABRUPT power creep on release which was coming from a slow but steady power decrease since game release (mostly vehicles wise).

For 4 out of 5 factions (UKF) it's less of an infantry issue matter at the moment so the speed of the game is not going to be affected.

OH eternal weakness to light vehicles and overall heavy meta changes are not something which will speed up things.

i hope u do realize im not asking for penal nerf right ?

i made the post cause as always we have the #alliedmyths in the forum, like "axis get free upgrades, tech cost less" "axis armor is better" "allies infantry bleed like crazy" etc


i was just disproving another #alliedmyths

penal scale perfectly well , just cause cons scale better that doesn't make them bad

the pfusi comparison is perfect cause pfusi are by most people in the forum considered the bests scaling infantry as the thread about them shows

i hope u do realize im not asking for penal nerf right ?

i made the post cause as always we have the #alliedmyths in the forum, like "axis get free upgrades, tech cost less" "axis armor is better" "allies infantry bleed like crazy" etc


i was just disproving another #alliedmyths

penal scale perfectly well , just cause cons scale better that doesn't make them bad

the pfusi comparison is perfect cause pfusi are by most people in the forum considered the bests scaling infantry as the thread about them shows

And as i said before, scaling is not just DPS + number of models with size + veterancy.

Even when conscripts were redeemed to be bad prior to 7man upgrade, getting fresh Penals was not the best idea into the late game and they are not spectacular units to have by that point if possible.

Does it mean they are bad? No. In the sense of the unit been bad requiring a buff.
Does it mean they are good? All around yes. At the end of the game no.

Acc 2x post

i hope u do realize im not asking for penal nerf right ?

I hope you do realize most of the people you quoted don't want penal buffs, right?

i was just disproving another #alliedmyths

penal scale perfectly well , just cause cons scale better that doesn't make them bad

Still waiting for you to point out the person who said "Penals are bad". Your last post before this one you literally made up quotes for you argue against...

the pfusi comparison is perfect cause pfusi are by most people in the forum considered the bests scaling infantry as the thread about them shows

That doesn't really mean anything though. I think pfusi are the best scaling in part because their default performance is so terrible. Cons are in a similar state

Penals on the other hand have great stating performance. Part of why they scale worse is because they are better to begin with... You're raising hell over nothing

.. Part of why they scale worse is because they are better to begin with... You're raising hell over nothing

It has been argued that "penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry" and "you will never see anyone sane rebuilding lost penals".

The case is even worse for PF since you have to spend a similar manpower and MU on top of that to get similar results.

Actually as far as I see allot of people do not even replace grenadier since even with lmg they simply stand a chance vs vetted Penal/7men conscripts/double wielding riflemen/double wielding IS
or any of the elite infatry available. I see allot of people building pios instead.

So claim is simply untrue.

The case is even worse for PF since you have to spend a similar manpower and MU on top of that to get similar results.

So claim is simply untrue.

Fusiliers get bonus vision w/ that muni upgrade, and have snare/flares. The vision and snares in particular make them a much more useful late game AI option than Penals

Fusiliers get bonus vision w/ that muni upgrade, and have snare/flares. The vision and snares in particular make them a much more useful late game AI option than Penals

The stats say a different story Penal, where built more than PF. PF where built in less than half the games they where available although the provided the AT grenade...

And utility does not make survive the late battlefield as for extra vision and snare that is also available to VG. The only thing they bring is the flares. Having to pay 280/80 munition to have access to flare is simply to much ,so there is little reason for one to replace G43 PF in late if one loses them.

From a designed point of view PF are better designed since they power come gradually and not at spawn as Penal. From balance point of view they are simply significantly less cost efficient than Penals.

The rest is just myth about how bad some allied units scale, like Penal in this case (or commandos) when their actual power level in late game is comparable to that PF.

The stats say a different story Penal, where built more than PF. PF where built in less than half the games they where available although the provided the AT grenade...

Me: Penals are better early, worse late
You: people built Penals more often in this tiny sample size

Okay? Those stats do not relate to what I'm talking about? They could just as well support my point as go against it. Maybe people built fewer fussies cause they are so bad early?

The rest is just myth about how bad some allied units scale, like Penal in this case (or commandos) when their actual power level in late game is comparable to that PF.

I have not talked about a single other allied unit besides Penals in this thread. I have no clue what your point is or why you're even taking to me if your having an allied v axis debate

One last time.
I that been claimed "penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry" and we have established that in late game Penal are about equal to the more expensive g43 PF, so the claim is simply not true.

The stat also indicated that although commanders with PF where chosen many times the unit was not used that often indicating that their implementation is problematic. That is possibly because they do start too weak and even in the late game they hardly excel over Penals.

If you disagree with any of these points feel free to do so else pls move on.

I that been claimed "penals scale pretty bad compared to other infantry" and we have established that in late game Penal are about equal to the more expensive g43 PF, so the claim is simply not true.

Equal in combat performance, not in utility. Whether or not snares and vision overlap with Volks has nothing to do with penals

One last time.

You quoted me first in this thread? I didn't ask you to explain anything, you chose to talk to me, drop the attitude

Equal in combat performance, not in utility. Whether or not snares and vision overlap with Volks has nothing to do with penals

It has everything to do with volks. Unities are balanced against what they are facing but compete with in their own faction about utility.

It a player has to choose between building 2 units of equal power he will choose the one more utility. If a player has to choose between 2 different units of different power level he will usually chose the most cost efficient (unless one unit bring irreplaceable or great utility).

And that bring us to current state of g43 PF, their early cost efficient is simply too low and it is not compensated by their "late" since their remain less cost efficient than Penals.
On the other hand their utility is not that great either since the only "new" thing they bring to table is the flare and having to invest nearly 300 manpower and 80 munition is simply not a good option.

And that agrees with the stats that have PF produced in less than half the games and about 2 units average without even being sure that all them where even used with g43s.

It probably another indication how powerful ST44 VGs are that even "superior" unit is not chosen over them.

You quoted me first in this thread? I didn't ask you to explain anything, you chose to talk to me, drop the attitude

I suggest you follow pls follow you own advice and drop the attitude.

It has everything to do with volks. Unities are balanced against what they are facing but compete with in their own faction about utility

Yeah you're not having the same conversation I was. A direct comparison of fusilers and penals scaling/late game has nothing to do with volks. And I'm not suggesting changes to either, all of what you're talking about has to do with what to change from PF vs Volks side of things

But they also have +1 man over volks though and their snare is longer range and doesn't require any tech. So flares are NOT the only thing they bring over volks, while you're comparing them

Really I was just pointing out to stug that no one said penals are bad, and no one wanted them buffed

And that agrees with the stats that have PF produced in less than half the games and about 2 units average without even being sure that all them where even used with g43s.

It probably another indication how powerful ST44 VGs are that even "superior" unit is not chosen over them.

I'm not sure its an indication of anything that specific, other than what those players chose to do in those specific games

My opinion
USF--fine，not need big buff or nerf
SOV--7men Consript too great，hard to drive away and powerful in late game，and they very cheap，easy to make Axis bleeding to death
OKW--Some change for Tech Tree，if remove or nerf tiger，they have no effective unit against Allies infantry and heavy tank
OST--Change some Commander make them more useful in 1v1
UKF--.......Whole faction need rework.........

Really I was just pointing out to stug that no one said penals are bad, and no one wanted them buffed

Well there are certain user that constantly complaining about how the units of the "favorite" faction are some how inferior and how the units of other faction are superior, making claims that are simply not true. In this case nobody asked for buffs for penal but they did claim that they are bad at late game when they power level is comparable to PF in late game. But this issue is has taken more space than it should already and we should move on.

...
I'm not sure its an indication of anything that specific, other than what those players chose to do in those specific games
...

If it is not a indication of anything that specific there is not point in collecting and analyzing all this data...

If it is not a indication of anything that specific there is not point in collecting and analyzing all this data...

I disagree I think it's interesting to look at and talk about. But jumping right in and using it to support your balance claim is not at all what it's for imo

This is one single 1v1 tournament that didn't include all maps in a game that can go up to 4 players per side and has different maps for each game-mode. I really don't see how you can take that and apply it to the entire game