State of the Soviets

It's all relative.

"It's all relative" to the benchmark which was and should be the most complete faction, the Ostheer.

It is, new you get buffed and then the "old" one needs buff also. And that is was it suggested. Buffing Ostheer more although they recently received a number of buffs like:
Better ostwind
earlier Pgs
DR in grenadier

It is not the Ostheer that need buffs or even the UKF that need buffes. It the OKW/Soviet/USF that need nerf.

Nice logic.
1. Find broken or underused unit
2. Unit don't need changes, we just need nerf 2 or 3 faction to make unit workable
3. ...
5. PROFIT!!

SU-76 don't need changes - nerf all axis
Ostwind didn't need changes - nerf all allies
COns didn't need changes - nerf all axis
Pgrens didn't need changes - nerf all allies

Repeat that cursed cirlce of nerfing for each unit....

To the benchmark which should be the most complete faction, the Ostheer

Then buff Ostheer and UKF, then all five factions are balanced to your benchmark faction.

Then buff Ostheer and UKF, then all five factions are balanced to your benchmark faction.

At this point you are either trolling or unaware what a "benchmark" is.

If you want to measure the side of your houses you do not change the "meter" so that the side of your house become it become "1".

At this point you are either trolling or unaware what a "benchmark" is.

If you want to measure the side of your houses you do not change the "meter" so that the side of your house become it become "1".

You're talking in absolute measurements.

Balance is relative.

"It's all relative" to the benchmark which was and should be the most complete faction, the Ostheer.

What if soviets are the benchmark?

What you say here is exclusively your own personal opinion, not a fact, so we will be greatful if you stopped presenting your personal, subjective opinions as a facts. Just because you often write them in 3rd person does not make them facts either, it just makes you look weirder then usual.

There is no such thing as "benchmark", every faction and unit is considered individually in the context of its own faction and what it faces against. Its been done like this ever since modders took over balancing and barring certain mishaps that were fixed(JLI and stuff), balance improved much more significantly and in shorter amount of time then under rule of relic, empirically proving further what you advocate for so stubbornly never really worked to begin with. THAT is a fact backed up by all the changes made so far and reasoning behind them.

I predicted this would happen just 25 minutes ago. Seems like I was right.

At least the first 2 pages of the thread was quiet useful.

Is there is benchmark faction in Starcraft2? Or benchmark hero in League of Legends? Benchmark faction in Warcraft?

Ostheer was dead in the water until the May patch, not sure what benchmark Vipper is dreaming about,

Lethality is nonexistent compared to past years.

What if soviets are the benchmark?

What you say here is exclusively your own personal opinion, not a fact, so we will be greatful if you stopped presenting your personal, subjective opinion as a fact.

There is no such thing as "benchmark", every faction and unit is considered individually in the context of its own faction and what it faces against. Its been done like this ever since modders took over balancing. THAT is a fact backed up by all the changes made so far and reasoning behind them.

Agree.

It is not an objective fact that Ostheer is the "benchmark" and it's also not an universal fact that Ostheer is the "best designed" faction either. A certain person here always claims these things because they suit his personal agenda but that doesn't make them true.

You're talking in absolute measurements.

Balance is relative.

Ok you don't seem to know what a "benchmark" is.

The "Meter" or the Kgr is not an "absolute measurement" it is a arbitrary choice made and is express relatively to that choice. If the side of your house is 7 meter than it "relatively" 7 times bigger than a meter and if you weight 80 Kgrs you have "relatively" 80 times the mass of the Kgr

And yes balance is "relative" to the benchmark. If ostheer is the used as the benchmark Soviet/USF/OKW are "OP", if Soviets are used as the benchmark all other factions are "UP".

Ok you don't seem to know what a "benchmark" is.

The "Meter" or the Kgr is not an "absolute measurement" it is a arbitrary choice made and is express relatively to that choice. If the side of your house is 7 meter than it "relatively" 7 times bigger than a meter and if you weight 80 Kgrs you have "relatively" 80 times the mass of the Kgr

And yes balance is "relative" to the benchmark. If ostheer is the used as the benchmark Soviet/USF/OKW are "OP", if Soviets are used as the benchmark all other factions are "UP".

But Ostheer's power level isn't a static quantity. It's never been a static quantity.

It's much easier to buff one faction than nerf three, and there's no benefit to the nerfing route.

Or you could learn to play.

1 vs 1?

But Ostheer's power level isn't a static quantity. It's never been a static quantity.

The power optimum power level is a "static quantity" and Ostheer are meant to be as close to that power level as possible. One fist decided what in his opinion is the optimum power level then brings a faction close to that power level and than adjust all other faction "relatively" to that first faction, in this case the Ostheer.

I one wishes to change the "power level" one follows the same procedure, but it far more complicated to change "power" than to buff/nerf a factions "relatively" to benchmark.

It's much easier to buff one faction than nerf three, and there's no benefit to the nerfing route.

That is like saying measuring in inches is "much easier" than measuring in meters because you happen to have a couple 1/2 inch pipes in your hands at this particular moment.

Buffing the benchmark make sense only if you want to change power level, and I have not see a single argument why the power level need to be increased since it would result in games that would be allot harder to turn if one side manage to get even the slightest advantage.

Higher power level means more snowball effects, more dependence on a single unit to win you the game, more micro less strategy.


Even we we forget about the "benchmark" the "It's much easier to buff one faction than nerf three" does not real hold much water. The faction did not start from the relative position but this is a direct result of the patches.

Reverting some of those changes that created the current "imbalance" is allot easier that trying to guess how much Ostheer and UKF need to buffed to adapt to the current situation.

And in this case reverting some of the buffs to Super heavies and 7 men upgrade is allot easier that buffing large portion of axis units.

Buff Panther main gun penetration so it's better against the IS-2 without becomming impossible to deal with in team games. Decrease IS-2 vet bonus range to 45 instead of 50.

There we go, easy fix. Now axis has a counter to the IS-2. No need to nerf a faction into oblivion because 1 doctrinal unit is too good.

Buff Panther main gun penetration so it's better against the IS-2 without becomming impossible to deal with in team games. Decrease IS-2 vet bonus range to 45 instead of 50.

There we go, easy fix. Now axis has a counter to the IS-2. No need to nerf a faction into oblivion because 1 doctrinal unit is too good.

Well said. 100% agreed.

Nerfing T-70, IS-2 and cons (which we finally buffed to offset Penals) will make the Soviet faction crap just like the Brits. 2 v 2 is a different game mode and majority of the issues listed here for T-70 are negligible in higher game modes, not to mention IS-2 gets completely shutdown in 4 v 4.

Every faction has its strengths & weakness meaning Soviets get crap mainline infantry while its light vehicles are the best. You cannot just nerf both T-70 and Cons. No way Soviets can hold off Falls and Obers mid/late game unless the Soviet player microed the hell out of his T-70 and kept it alive to fight them.

I wouldn't even touch the IS-2 because its mainly in a doctrine and part of countering this unit is dependent on a competent player. Just like Soviets and Allies to have to re-think strategies of countering elephant. Also, IS-2 has a notoriously long repair time!

Stock suggestion for Soviet:

SNIP

This looks like a laundry list of nerfing the entire Soviet faction. It took YEARS to make T-34 somewhat viable and we should its nerf it again?