Give USF an intermediate AT

Yes, this is another "M36 OP, Also Panther" thread (now there's 4 of them!); but I think I've found a solution to the problem that isn't simply nerfing the M36/Panther/Etc. That solution comes from the realization of a problem in the core USF design: USF has no intermediate AT


Stats may be slightly old, but it should explain the point
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This chart should help explain what I mean. It lists each faction's main infantry AT weapon, ATG, Light-AT vehicle, Medium-AT vehicle, and Heavy-AT vehicle, and compares their pen against a bunch of enemy front armor values.

What you'll notice is that the USF has a giant gap no other faction has, between pen values of 150 and 260. That means, if the USF runs into a vehicle with over ~150 armor, the ONLY reliable answer is the M36. That means against an Ost P4, JP4, OKW P4, Panther, Tiger, KT, Ele, JT, etc. - the answer is always "M36".

This is a problem, especially when trying to figure out what to do with the M36. Essentially it needs to be available to counter those vehicles, despite the fact that those 'targets' usually come much earlier and cheaper. In turn, this means that for the USF to not be completely out of luck against anything stronger than an OST P4, the M36 (by design) needs to over-perform.

My suggestion is that, rather than redesigning half a dozen vehicles, we simply fill that gap; give USF an intermediate AT source so that the M36 doesn't need to over-perform to keep the USF faction viable. From what I can see, this can be done in one of two ways:

A) Make the M10 a non-doc vehicle (currently 180-140 pen close/far)
B) Add a "big" ATG; a clone of the Pak40 / 6 Pounder (210-190 pen close/far)

Once that's done, the M36 can have its price increased (and/or pop), as it will no longer need to be the USF's main source of AT. From there, we can more easily look at the panther, since it no longer needs to stand up to a cheap, very powerful, TD.

Rework the stuart would be my choice. Increase its cost and make it better against medium tanks. Right now its abilities are the only thing it can really contribute to fighting medium tanks. Those abilities are good, but you can only use 1 at a time and they still only do so much

Edit: US should only get AT buffs if Jackson is nerfed (cost or performance), I agree that should be assumed

I'm just gonna shoot in the dark here, but if we removed the "point blank" engine critical which is a stupid ability that either doesn't function or doesn't damage the engine, we could give it a muni ammo ability that increases damage to 120 (maybe 160) but reduces RoF inorder for to it go pseudo medium repellant.

I'm just gonna shoot in the dark here, but if we removed the "point blank" engine critical which is a stupid ability that either doesn't function or doesn't damage the engine

Just a very finnicky ability. The stuart tries to re-position itself if you're not in just the right spot to use it, which always becomes a pathing nightmare. If you can get close enough to rear armor before you use it it usually goes through

The timed damage boost with lower ROF is a cool idea though, would happily trade it for point blank

You can’t have non-linear tech AND an intermediate AT.

Perhaps if you removed fuel costs from nades, weapon rack and ambulance, then made Captain mandatory after LT, then you could slap the M1 at HQ without its sabot rounds, then put a lend-lease 6pdr from the Brits at LT/Major tier.

Flank with regular Sherman at rounds? Superb moving accuracy it has

The 57 at gun is fast repositioning too. And its turbo vet ability is crazy good.

Then you have usf rifles with vet snare nades. Rifles are infinitely more useful in long games than grens. I would prefer to build more pgrens but faust is needed...

I think the 'problem' is jackson is so much better AT and not much later than regular sherman, usf can afford to wait out.

The Sherman is your intermediate AT you asking but why build that in 2v2 and above. It is a comfortable decision to skip

Doesn't the 57mm AP fill the role of intermediate AT? Also all USF's lower range AT has best in case ROF does it not?

Doesn't the 57mm AP fill the role of intermediate AT?

Doesn't every AT gun in the game fill the role of intermediate AT? Yet still everyone else has it in vehicle form as well

The entire point is to have intermediate AT that cant be clicked away by rocket arty

Doesn't every AT gun in the game fill the role of intermediate AT? Yet still everyone else has it in vehicle form as well

The entire point is to have intermediate AT that cant be clicked away by rocket arty

Touche. Im not opposed to changes, and while this OP is absolutely amazing anf refreshing (seriously great job) not including abilities that provide substantial bonuses to the stats in display is misleading. As is the claim that usf doesn't have anything in the 150-260 range (the brits only have the 6lb) when the 57mm can breach those values.

I think it's important to show all the pertinent information to paint the fullest picture.

Side note-- reviewing the graph.... Okw is fucking stacked...

not including abilities that provide substantial bonuses to the stats in display is misleading. As is the claim that usf doesn't have anything in the 150-260 range (the brits only have the 6lb) when the 57mm can breach those values.

I think it's important to show all the pertinent information to paint the fullest picture.

Agreed, I didnt read too much into them leaving that out since OP also suggested cost increase for the Jackson. I think if any US AT gets buffed, it should be coming with a jackson nerf, thats definitely important

Ideally it would be less good against mediums, and the buff to other AT/new stock unit would be focused towards that. Hardly an original idea on my part, have seen similar suggestions around the forum lately besides this thread

Doesn't every AT gun in the game fill the role of intermediate AT? Yet still everyone else has it in vehicle form as well

The entire point is to have intermediate AT that cant be clicked away by rocket arty

While I do agree with you, the other point I was making with the chart is that the USF "intermediate AT" isn't very 'intermediate' in terms of pen; they have nothing between 150 and 260, which is where a lot of mediums are in terms of armor.

Touche. Im not opposed to changes, and while this OP is absolutely amazing anf refreshing (seriously great job) not including abilities that provide substantial bonuses to the stats in display is misleading. As is the claim that usf doesn't have anything in the 150-260 range (the brits only have the 6lb) when the 57mm can breach those values.

I think it's important to show all the pertinent information to paint the fullest picture.

Side note-- reviewing the graph.... Okw is fucking stacked...

Thanks!

While I did consider adding abilities such as the M1's, I really wanted to focus on "base-line" performance, that's why there's no abilities, doc-bonuses (ex. OKW's HEAT), or vet bonuses included, and also why there's no armor bonuses either (again, vet based).

If I have the time, I might make a 2nd version, although figuring out how to show that much data on a graph might be a bit tricky.

And yea, I was also surprised at how stacked OKW is.

So how would the stock M10 be implemented? In the Major tech for sure, but with the tech split between M10+M4A3 at first and nerfed/redesigned Jackson+Scott (with Sherman HE rounds) locked behind second tech?

So how would the stock M10 be implemented? In the Major tech for sure, but with the tech split between M10+M4A3 at first and nerfed/redesigned Jackson+Scott (with Sherman HE rounds) locked behind second tech?

These are just rough ideas, and the exact details would need far more thought and consideration:

1. Unlocked when both Cap and LT are researched

2. Replacing the M36 in Major tier (although at a lower cost than the M36), with the M36 then requiring all 3 tiers (Cap/LT/Major)

3. Replacing the M36 in Major tier (although at a lower cost than the M36), with the M36 then requiring an extra upgrade to unlock in Major tier.

While I do agree with you, the other point I was making with the chart is that the USF "intermediate AT" isn't very 'intermediate' in terms of pen; they have nothing between 150 and 260, which is where a lot of mediums are in terms of armor.

That leaves out the m1 57mm AP rounds. Those pen values do fall in between 150 and 260. Thats what armadillo was pointing out, but I still agree with your suggestion for more AT against mediums outside of the AT gun

I don't think HEAT would need more than a foot note since it's a flat increase but the usf shells could probably be their own lines below their original unit.

While usf stock AT is definitely stacked into the Jackson the other versions are not toothless either. The zook on an elite squad is significantly better in raw stats for example but retain the stock rate of fire

The m1 has the sabot rounds that drive up pen but again doesn't lower the great ROF (also take aim for squeezing out that extra shot)

And very very importantly even though the Jackson is already on par with allied counterparts, for a bit of munitions you can drive that leagues above.

Again this op is fantastic, and the visual aspect really adds a lot but as with anything it can't show everything (and again, I can't stress enough how pleased I am with this threads delivery)

Rework the stuart would be my choice. Increase its cost and make it better against medium tanks. Right now its abilities are the only thing it can really contribute to fighting medium tanks. Those abilities are good, but you can only use 1 at a time and they still only do so much

Edit: US should only get AT buffs if Jackson is nerfed (cost or performance), I agree that should be assumed

instead of a rework how about a gun upgrade that increase at but lowers ai?

No m-42 in the Soviet tree? 0/10 I uninstalled CoH2.

(The AT rifles on tank hunter sections and the brit sniper are also missing. Remember when relic told us the brit sniper was a LV counter? I do. Lawdy.)


More seriously: It's a nice chart, but I don't agree with the proposals. In 1v1 it's fairly negligible, possibly a USF nerf.

It's a band aid to try and let axis players use more mediums in team games, where it's just never going to be a great idea. Making the Jackson less good at being a tank destroyer will do nothing to address the obscene speed of teaching that makes team games what they are. Heavy TDs are mandatory since the crowding of maps makes flanking nigh impossible. TDs will always be the go to, and nothing about this is going to make an allied player do anything but buy TDs asap to prepare for the incoming tiger/kt/elephant, so medium tanks will still get dunked on if they do anything but snipe from infantry screens

These are just rough ideas, and the exact details would need far more thought and consideration:

1. Unlocked when both Cap and LT are researched

2. Replacing the M36 in Major tier (although at a lower cost than the M36), with the M36 then requiring all 3 tiers (Cap/LT/Major)

3. Replacing the M36 in Major tier (although at a lower cost than the M36), with the M36 then requiring an extra upgrade to unlock in Major tier.

Not really balanced on the current state of the game imo, one faction get the KT once all tiers are built, another get an additional tier with panthers, brumbar and Pzwerfer, another get churchill or Comet and then USF would get the Jackson with on top of that a pop tax (or to suicide the squad). Putting the Jackson behind such a pay wall is a huge nerf that would come on top of nerfing the unit to be only relevant vs heavy tanks.

Imo Sherman M4a3 need to go and be replaced by Ez8, then for what I care Sherman76mm can go to hell it was a Soviet unit since the beginning. Replace it with the M4a3 in their doctrines, make the m4a3 cheaper or coming with the pintle MG if it need peps.

Not really balanced on the current state of the game imo, one faction get the KT once all tiers are built, another get an additional tier with panthers, brumbar and Pzwerfer, another get churchill or Comet and then USF would get the Jackson with on top of that a pop tax (or to suicide the squad). Putting the Jackson behind such a pay wall is a huge nerf that would come on top of nerfing the unit to be only relevant vs heavy tanks.

Imo Sherman M4a3 need to go and be replaced by Ez8, then for what I care Sherman76mm can go to hell it was a Soviet unit since the beginning. Replace it with the M4a3 in their doctrines, make the m4a3 cheaper or coming with the pintle MG if it need peps.

Soviet weeps in their fully teched corner..

But also perhaps a tech locked Jackson wouldn't be so bad. It could be coupled with a price and pop reduction at the same time and if it's delayed there wouldn't be as much need to neuter its medium performance (should still be lowered tho).
What's more, if it is moved to later, medium counters can be improved as well to help bridge the gap... It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing on the whole.