Change tied to tech on call-in with tech requirements

Several years ago, T-34-85 and M4A3E8 were tied to tech for the same reason, why heavies were connected with tech in september patch. It was the first time, when doctrinal vehicles were tied to tech:

T-34-85
We decided to take a different approach with Medium Call-ins and have them tie into the core tech tree. This change still require the player to have commander equipped with a T-34-85 Commander ability but also will now require players to build a Mechanized Armor Kampaneya to acquire the T34-85 medium tank.
- T-34-85 is no longer a call in vehicle
- T-34-85 is now buildable in the Mechanized Armor Kampaneya
- CP changed from 9 to 0

Sherman Easy Eight
We decided to take a different approach with Medium Call-ins and have them tie into the core tech tree. This change still require the player to have the Rifle Company Commander but also will now require players to unlock the Battalion Command Post to acquire the M4A3E8 Sherman ‘Easy Eight).
- M4A3E8 Sherman ‘Easy Eight’ is now a buildable Tank in the Battalion Command Post
- CP requirement reduced to 0

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p3

Since then, several vehicles were tied to tech as well, but not all of them. Usually, it was made for nerfing meta doctrines (like it was with Puma and shock rifle doctrines) or to put more units in the doctrine (like mech company). I think last variant of this mechanic (call-in with CP and technology requirements) is the way how all doctrine vehicles should work in the first place.

Currently, there is no clear system for call-ins. Especially for light vehciles, proportions are circa 40% vs 60%. At the same time heviest and mediums have different mechanics in general (mediums mainly tied to tech, heavies mainly call-in with tech requirements)

Light vehicles
In total: 14
36% - tied to tech
64% - call-ins

M5 with Assault Guards - call-in
Opel Blitz for Ostheer - call-in
SdKfz 250/1 - call-in AND tied to tech (depends on doctrine)
SdKfz 250/7 - call-in
SdKfz 234/2 "Puma" for Ostheer - tied to tech
Opel Blitz for OKW - call-in
SdKfz 221/223 - tied to tech
WC51 - tied to tech
M3 halftrack for USF - tied to tech
M5 halftrack for USF - call-in
M21 - call-in
Valentine - call-in
M3 halftrack for UKF - call-in
M5 halftrack for UKF - call-in

Medium vehicles
In total: 12
75% - tied to tech
25% - call-ins

T-34-85 - tied to tech
M4A2(76)W (a.k.a M4C) - tied to tech
Panzer IV Ausf. J for Ostheer - tied to tech
StuG III Ausf. E - call-in with tech requirements
Command Panzer IV Ausf. F1 - call-in with tech requirements
M10 "Wolverhine" - tied to tech
M4A3(76)W - tied to tech
M4A3E8 - tied to tech
M4A3(105) - call-in with tech requirements
Flammpanzer 38(t) - tied to tech
Ostwind for OKW - tied to tech
Achilles I - tied to tech

Heavie vehicles
In total: 16
12,5% - tied to tech
87,5% - call-ins

KV-1 - tied to tech
KV-2 - call-in with tech requirements
KV-8 - tied to tech
IS-2 - call-in with tech requirements
ISU-152 - call-in with tech requirements
Tiger I - call-in with tech requirements
Tiger I Ace - call-in with tech requirements
Elefant - call-in with tech requirements
M26 - call-in with tech requirements
Jagdtiger - call-in with tech requirements
Sturmtiger - call-in with tech requirements
Tiger II - call-in with tech requirements (added due to in-game mechanics)
Command Tiger I - call-in with tech requirements
Command Panther - call-in with tech requirements
Churchill AVRE - call-in with tech requirements
Churchill Crocodile - call-in with tech requirements

In total: 16 out of 42 working not as call-ins. Or 38% of doctrinal vehicles.

If this change will be applied, all vehicle call-in will work in the same way and have common requirements system. Actually, i think panzerfusiliers should be adjusted too, because it is the only infantry docntrinal unit, which was tied to tech.

A small issue with the US Mechanized Company, the M3 and Jeep share the same slot and therefor cannot become a call-in.

I agree on changing at least medium and heavy tanks to cp + tech. Light vehicles might not need tech requirements, but that should be evaluated per unit.

Normalizing the mechanics would be good but some specialized unit could have different mechanics.

For instance Command vehicles could remain call ins and OKW call-in could become build-able from HQ to increase build orders.

What in my opinion could improve things would to make Super heavies built-able from HQ with long built time so that they can not instantly be replaced and so their arrival can become more consistent across factions.

A small issue with the US Mechanized Company, the M3 and Jeep share the same slot and therefor cannot become a call-in.

I agree on changing at least medium and heavy tanks to cp + tech. Light vehicles might not need tech requirements, but that should be evaluated per unit.

That's right, but mechanized is overloaded with units atm, definetly need some more tweaks. ANd heavies already have cp + tech requirements (except KV-1 and KV-8), as well as StuG E and M4A3(105).

Normalizing the mechanics would be good but some specialized unit could have different mechanics.

For instance Command vehicles could remain call ins and OKW call-in could become build-able from HQ to increase build orders.

What in my opinion could improve things would to make Super heavies built-able from HQ with long built time so that they can not instantly be replaced and so their arrival can become more consistent across factions.

From the start of CoH history, doctrinal units in majority situation were call-ins, and it should stay. IMO doctrinal units should not be buildable from base buildngs at all, only call-ins, it is essence part of doctrine system to open new units throw call-ins. CP requirements and additional tech lock, like was made with heavies in septembr patch, are more than enough.

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From the start of CoH history, doctrinal units in majority situation were call-ins, and it should stay. IMO doctrinal units should not be buildable from base buildngs at all, only call-ins, it is essence part of doctrine system to open new units throw call-ins. CP requirements and additional tech lock, like was made with heavies in septembr patch, are more than enough.

One of the problem with super heavies is that they can be instantly replaced especially in large modes.

My original suggestion was to have CD start at when units is lost and not from when unit is called in but it seems that this is not doable so the next best thing imo is to have super heavies being built with a long built time so that managing to kill one of these units while sacrificing one's would be rewarding.

In the case of other doctrinal units I would real mind if they are buil-able from HWQ or call-in.

My original suggestion was to have CD start at when units is lost and not from when unit is called in but it seems that this is not doable so the next best thing imo is to have super heavies being built with a long built time so that managing to kill one of these units while sacrificing one's would be rewarding.

Do you know how the infiltration tactics grenade is implemented? I cannot find it in the moddingtools, but I wonder if such a mechanic can be used to start the cooldown after a certain requirement is met.

Aside from the Puma situation, nobody is complaining about vehicles being built from tech structures. No need to change a system which everyone thinks that it absolutely works.

Do you know how the infiltration tactics grenade is implemented? I cannot find it in the moddingtools, but I wonder if such a mechanic can be used to start the cooldown after a certain requirement is met.

Sorry my moding skills are not that good but I will have a look and let you know if i find it.

Aside from the Puma situation, nobody is complaining about vehicles being built from tech structures. No need to change a system which everyone thinks that it absolutely works.

It's not "bad working pls fix" situation. It's more about standartsization of doctrine unit spawing mechanics. In different period of time diferent method were applied. All of them working, but on the other hand there is a mess with them. I am just asking to bring them to common standart and that's all.

It's not "bad working pls fix" situation. It's more about standartsization of doctrine unit spawing mechanics. In different period of time diferent method were applied. All of them working, but on the other hand there is a mess with them. I am just asking to bring them to common standart and that's all.

I agree with about the standardization but not necessarily across all faction and vehicles types.

For instance I see little reason for OKW to lose access to doctrinal vehicles after losing T4.

Sorry my moding skills are not that good but I will have a look and let you know if i find it.

Never mind, it seems that the infiltration grenades no longer requires to be out of combat. But I found the solution and will send it to the balance team

I agree with about the standardization but not necessarily across all faction and vehicles types.

For instance I see little reason for OKW to lose access to doctrinal vehicles after losing T4.

The requirement could be adjusted to: have build T4 once, instead of own T4.

The requirement could be adjusted to: have build T4 once, instead of own T4.

That would an improvement imo.

The same change imo should apply to Ostheer faust, so that tech can not be "unlearned".

It's not "bad working pls fix" situation. It's more about standartsization of doctrine unit spawing mechanics. In different period of time diferent method were applied. All of them working, but on the other hand there is a mess with them. I am just asking to bring them to common standart and that's all.

They worked, but they weren't balanced. The problem with call-ins was that it punished you for teching. The entire reason they were tied to tech was to stop people from stalling for zero-tech/zero-build time tanks that were generally superior to standard tanks that you needed to invest to get. OKW Special Operations for example dominated the faction because the zero-tech instant Command Panther. Packaged deals like the Assault Guards in M5 should probably stay as a call-in.

They worked, but they weren't balanced. The problem with call-ins was that it punished you for teching. The entire reason they were tied to tech was to stop people from stalling for zero-tech/zero-build time tanks that were generally superior to standard tanks that you needed to invest to get. OKW Special Operations for example dominated the faction because the zero-tech instant Command Panther.

Please, re-read what i‘ve written. I am sure you misunderstood me.
I am not for call in without tech, i am for bringing all doctrine vehicles to the level of heavy tanks in the september patch (iow apply to them cp + tech requirements system)