My Proposal to change Allied TDs

And how are you gonna shoot at it?

smoke pots will be the M36 worst enemy. Also any kind of shotblocker.
On close quarter maps M36 would be nearly useless.

I think 70 range 480HP is a good solution, we could even remove the crew for it and declare it officially balanced.

smoke pots will be the M36 worst enemy. Also any kind of shotblocker.
On close quarter maps M36 would be nearly useless.

I think 70 range 480HP is a good solution, we could even remove the crew for it and declare it officially balanced.

I get why you think this would work, but in reality you could just abuse Pathfinders/IR Paths to get sight and freely snipe enemy armour with 0 counterplay.

I get why you think this would work, but in reality you could just abuse Pathfinders/IR Paths to get sight and freely snipe enemy armour with 0 counterplay.

You can do that already. The Jackson outranges the entire Ost nondoc lineup. And the only OKW vehicle that it'd now outrange (the JPIV) can just turn invisible to protect it from sniping.

Lago's right, ambush invis is the direct counter to "a lot of range"

OST have doctrinal camo. OKW has JP4. ATGs are safe from M36s, its not that impossible to beat a jackson if they had 70 range.

Lago's right, ambush invis is the direct counter to "a lot of range"

OST have doctrinal camo. OKW has JP4. ATGs are safe from M36s, its not that impossible to beat a jackson if they had 70 range.

Except that camo only applies to infantry (and MG42), not the Pak40 or other AT weapons. So yes, you could camo some PGrens w/ schrecks, but that's about all the upgrade would do.

JP4 has 60 range, which means the 70-range M36 would out-range it. You can camo, but that'll only help with your first shot; after that it can still be flanked, or simply out-ranged (back away the M36's speed). Even with two of them, you'd still need an extra shot to take out an M36.

ATGs are safe from M36s, but they also have 60 range; again, you'd need to either push with ATGs (not really going to work), or wait for the M36 to get in range - which it doesn't need to do.


In general, ATGs just aren't viable against super mobile vehicles with a decent amount of HP. They work against LVs since they can usually 2-shot them, but against 480hp+ vehicles, they need 3+ hits to beat them. In that amount of time, the target can easily move out of the ATGs firing cone. ATGs become even less viable when that target can survive 3+ hits, is super mobile, AND has 10+ range over them.

USF needs EZ-8 non-doctrine or overly buffed Sherman AT rounds if the Jackson were to be nerfed. Also, I am sorry but I dont want a buff AT gun to offset Jackson nerfs especially when late game comes with arty spam cancer.

LOL 70 Range Jackson with 480 WHAT !?

People are nuts nowadays.

One change with a very low impact would be to delay the M36 either by increasing built time or bringing major inline with LT/Cap providing only access to Sherman and requiring further tech for M36/scott.

The timing should be such that M36 could arrive close to Tiger arrival.

That would allow more breathing room for medium tanks and would help determine if M36 needs to be so effective vs mediums.

One change with a very low impact would be to delay the M36 either by increasing built time or bringing major inline with LT/Cap providing only access to Sherman and requiring further tech for M36/scott.

The timing should be such that M36 could arrive close to Tiger arrival.

That would allow more breathing room for medium tanks and would help determine if M36 needs to be so effective vs mediums.

Unfortunately that wouldn't mean much when you can get like 9CP by 17 mins.

USF needs EZ-8 non-doctrine or overly buffed Sherman AT rounds if the Jackson were to be nerfed. Also, I am sorry but I dont want a buff AT gun to offset Jackson nerfs especially when late game comes with arty spam cancer.

I don't think we need to shuffle things around that much. Buffing/non-doc'ing the EZ8 to replace a nerfed M36 is just adding extra steps for (imo) no reason. This was brought up earlier in the thread, but basically, USF needs an intermediate AT solution, somewhere between the M1 (weak) and the M36 (very strong). Lago brought up the idea of making the M10 a non-doc intermediate, which (I think) is a good implementation of the idea (minus the 70-range M36).

Not to mention, the EZ8 having better AT than the M36 would look strange, visually, since the M36's cannon is visually much larger.

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that this is the ONLY viable solution. The entire TD issue revolves around USF having essentially one viable non-doc AT solution, since the M1 doesn't have the pen to go against axis heavies. This has resulted in the M36 being the de-facto AT solution for literally every unit, which means it needs to be viable against opponents as tough as the Ele/JT.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two ways of implementing this idea. The USF AT hierarchy can be either M1 -> M36 -> BigATG or M1 -> BigATG -> M36. If it's the former, the M36 needs to be nerfed down to STuG levels, with a comparable price reduction; if it's the later, the M36 needs its price increased to panther levels (i.e. +40f) with no real performance buffs. Then we slide in an ATG into that new performance-slot, with performance/price being a copy of the Pak/6lb.

What about M1 » M10 » M36?

The M10 goes in T3, the Jackson goes up to 180ish FU but gets 70 range.

Unfortunately that wouldn't mean much when you can get like 9CP by 17 mins.

And imo Super heavies need to be delayed, actually I do not really see why progressively more powerful units become available earlier.

One change with a very low impact would be to delay the M36 either by increasing built time or bringing major inline with LT/Cap providing only access to Sherman and requiring further tech for M36/scott.

The timing should be such that M36 could arrive close to Tiger arrival.

That would allow more breathing room for medium tanks and would help determine if M36 needs to be so effective vs mediums.

2 stages of major tech - a very good idea

Just make the M1 AT gun a 6pdr/pak clone with less pen and 65 range. Then nerf the Jackson’s AP round pen but buff the HVAP rof a bit so both are usable depending on the target.

Is it possible to scale ability with tech? If you split the tech on the major you could reduce the price on the sabot rounds when fully teched? I feel tech is a woefully overlooked scaling tool that can be used to make sure things arnt too strong when they hit but can be made usable when the game tries to leave them behind

The biggest problem is not to overdo anything as the game is quite balanced. Just making major tech split into Sherman and m36 and Scott behind some research door would do the trick. It would promote Sherman play