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6 changes to improve Wehrmacht commanders thematically

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PanzerFutz
31 Oct 2019, 07:52 AM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 07:08 AMSmartie

emergency repairs and other abilities ... could ... be used to improve wehr commanders.


I support this idea in principle but, it would have to be applied carefully.

For instance, substituting Emergency Repairs for Relief Infantry in Lightning War makes sense but, it might make the doctrine too powerful. Whereas, substituting Breakthrough for Relief Infantry makes the doctrine more coherent and utilizes a little-used ability from a little-used Wehr doctrine without making Lightning War too powerful.

Other OKW abilities are even more problematic when applied to Ostheer doctrines. Transferring units is simpler, by comparison, but unnecessary in most cases IMO.
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JibberJabberJobber
31 Oct 2019, 08:31 AM
#22
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Or just buff relief infantry. Making it 4 CP would already be a good start.
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Smartie
31 Oct 2019, 08:38 AM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 08:31 AMJibberJabberJobber
Or just buff relief infantry. Making it 4 CP would already be a good start.

Reworkong an underwhelming ability is good but that would not solve the issue with the thematic fit. It doesnt fit at all to lighning war.

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JibberJabberJobber
31 Oct 2019, 09:49 AM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 08:38 AMSmartie

Reworkong an underwhelming ability is good but that would not solve the issue with the thematic fit. It doesnt fit at all to lighning war.


Yeah, replacing abilities with ones that fit the theme would be best of course, but you'd have to be careful not to replace them with something much more powerful, which is why buffing existing abilities is safer.

If we can get another patch providing small commander retouches (not full reworks), that would be amazing though.
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Vipper
31 Oct 2019, 09:59 AM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 06:38 AMoootto92

I'd like to argue that G43s are not a solid buff to the infantry because grenadiers already have the option to go for lmg42s and pgren stgs are great. G43s just provide you with a possibility for a different playstyle.

I understand where you are coming with this, but I think that G43s in their current state are nowhere near as good of an infantry upgrade as the ability to lay sandbags and mines with mainline infantry from CP0. Lightning war doctrine is balanced if you compare it to the Heavy Cavalry Company.

Well the state of the G43 is simply a result of the power creep and the continues buffs other units/abilities got.

Imo the ability should add the an upgrade to HQ costing some fuel that would allow Grenadier and possibly PG to upgrade with 5 entity and upgrade with 4+1 G43 than now are closer to M1 for Gren and m1 carbine for PG. That would solidify it as different play style.

As for "relief infatry" I would change the mechanics, Longer duration but instead of the classical Ostruppen you get an new squad of "Ostruppen" with target size 1 and no cover mechanics that can marge but not reinforce. Their job to replace front-line losses on the squads that are fighting. One could even add as small heal (4 hp?) when merging.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 01:38 AMPanzerFutz
.
Vipper's Mechanized Repair Team sounds interesting but, I'm curious about the mechanics of it. Are they tied to the half-track or can they wander the map on their own?
..

The unit I suggested as passenger is a six men repair team with very poor damage and it exist in one of the FOW mission.

But I guess one could redesign the 250 to become a mobile repair station, Pioneer could passenger that automatically repair once the 250 goes to hull down.
:)
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Smartie
31 Oct 2019, 10:32 AM
#26
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jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 09:59 AMVipper


The unit I suggested as passenger is a six men repair team with very poor damage and it exist in one of the FOW mission.

But I guess one could redesign the 250 to become a mobile repair station, Pioneer could passenger that automatically repair once the 250 goes to hull down.

If i remember it correctly there is an repair and recovery truck in the gamefiles. Would be a real nice addition for wehrmacht.
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achpawel
31 Oct 2019, 11:47 AM
#27
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Ostheer:
- stock option for bunkers to upgrade to repair pios (like in coh 1)
- 60 range on stug to match other TDs
UKF:
- AEC and Bofors not mutually exclusive
- More manpower refunded for removing emplacements with pios (50-70%)
USF:
- crews should take damage in proportion to the damage vehicle receives (passive healing like in ostheer halftrack added to make them heal in time)
- Jackson cost increased by 15 fuel
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    Lago
    31 Oct 2019, 13:37 PM
    #28
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    Remove Relief Infantry wholesale and replace it with Ostruppen Reserves. Remove the random LMGs then reprice the ability to 400 MP.

    Decrease Smoke Bombs to 2 CP, increase Panzer Tactician to 4 CP, then replace a few instances of Panzer Tactician with Smoke Bombs for variety's sake.

    Remove Panzer Tactician from Mobile Defence, then make the Puma not require BP2. Without the Command Tank or smoking LVs, you can get away with that.
    Fill the empty slot with Panzergrenadier Support Package, which gives them smoke grenades and repair kits.
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    31 Oct 2019, 14:22 PM
    #29
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    People need to stop dismissing Relief infantry, I bet every single one of you hasn’t even used it.
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    PanzerFutz
    31 Oct 2019, 14:29 PM
    #30
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    jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 14:22 PMT.R. Stormjäger
    People need to stop dismissing Relief infantry, I bet every single one of you hasn’t even used it.


    Yeah, that's kind of the problem.

    I've used every doctrine in which it resides but, I never get any use out of the ability. By the time I realize I should use it, it's too late to get any value out of it. I'm not into suicide blobs so, I never know when I'm going to need it. Maybe if it lasted longer (like 2 minutes), I would actually get something back for the cost of using it.

    As it is, for me it's just a wasted slot.
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    31 Oct 2019, 14:37 PM
    #31
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    jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 14:29 PMPanzerFutz


    Yeah, that's kind of the problem.

    I've used every doctrine in which it resides but, I never get any use out of the ability. By the time I realize I should use it, it's too late to get any value out of it. I'm not into suicide blobs so, I never know when I'm going to need it. Maybe if it lasted longer (like 2 minutes), I would actually get something back for the cost of using it.

    As it is, for me it's just a wasted slot.


    So just because you forget to use it it’s a useless ability?

    10/10 logic

    If anything it’s a perfect ability because its benefit is balanced by the high skill cap of knowing when to use it.
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    Lago
    1 Nov 2019, 17:55 PM
    #32
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    jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 14:22 PMT.R. Stormjäger
    People need to stop dismissing Relief infantry, I bet every single one of you hasn’t even used it.


    Relief Infantry isn't on the chopping block because it's bad, Relief Infantry is on the chopping block because its high concept of "kill your soldiers on purpose to get more soldiers" is stupid.
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    Farlion
    1 Nov 2019, 18:32 PM
    #33
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 17:55 PMLago


    Relief Infantry isn't on the chopping block because it's bad, Relief Infantry is on the chopping block because its high concept of "kill your soldiers on purpose to get more soldiers" is stupid.


    This. Also, when I play Lightning War I absolutely have no interest in getting Osttruppen. If I want to play with those, there's two doctrines that have them.
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    1 Nov 2019, 18:42 PM
    #34
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 17:55 PMLago


    Relief Infantry isn't on the chopping block because it's bad, Relief Infantry is on the chopping block because its high concept of "kill your soldiers on purpose to get more soldiers" is stupid.


    No, it’s on the chopping block by a bunch of people who’ve never bothered using it. How many times have you used it?
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    oootto92
    1 Nov 2019, 19:27 PM
    #35
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 18:42 PMT.R. Stormjäger


    No, it’s on the chopping block by a bunch of people who’ve never bothered using it. How many times have you used it?


    I'm pretty sure we'd see it more often in the pro games if it really was as useful as you make it out to be.

    It should not reward losing models and playing "badly". It should reward playing good. Maybe change the ability to spawn ostruppen when a certain amount of enemy models has been killed during that time? Just come up with a balanced kill ratio and then explain it as "Raise in volunteer conscription rates due to rise in moral because of the victories on the front line" or something along those lines.
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    1 Nov 2019, 19:56 PM
    #36
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 19:27 PMoootto92


    I'm pretty sure we'd see it more often in the pro games if it really was as useful as you make it out to be.


    That’s a very long way of saying “I haven’t used it”.
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    oootto92
    1 Nov 2019, 20:07 PM
    #37
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 19:56 PMT.R. Stormjäger


    That’s a very long way of saying “I haven’t used it”.


    I don't consider myself as a pro but thank you very much for the compliment :)
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    T.R. Stormjäger
    1 Nov 2019, 20:11 PM
    #38
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 20:07 PMoootto92


    I don't consider myself as a pro but thank you very much for the compliment :)


    Nothing to do with being a pro. You can’t say an ability is good/bad/mediocre if you haven’t used it.

    Pros do their own thing most of the time. When the sept patch hit, sturm officier was buffed to op status, but everyone was playing Falls. Eventually people gravitated towards Breakthrough.

    If Relief infantry is in a commander that’s meta, you’ll see it a lot more often.
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    oootto92
    1 Nov 2019, 20:22 PM
    #39
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    jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 20:11 PMT.R. Stormjäger


    Nothing to do with being a pro. You can’t say an ability is good/bad/mediocre if you haven’t used it.


    I have used this ability. My anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with whether or not this ability is useful or not. Some ability getting ignored on a regular basis by the top players on the other hand is something that we can draw conclusions from. I can say with a confidence that seeing this used in a deliberate manner amongst the top players who stream or are casted is a rarity.

    I stated that in its current state this ability rewards losing models. I think that we could achieve the same outcome of receiving one ore two ostruppen for the price of munitions if this ability was changed to reward good plays in form of rewarding killing enemy models.
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    Smartie
    1 Nov 2019, 20:55 PM
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    I would add that Relief infantry - good or bad- is certainly not a thematical fit with Lightning War. You can make a case that it should stay at Festung Support but honestly i really hope it gets replaced by Breakthrough, a much better fitting ability that is only used in 1 doctrine.
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