Soviet infantry and docterine changes suggestions

I posted this idea a while go deep in another tread. I think however that the idea's are good and deserves there own tread.

PPSH upgrade in it's current form becomes a non doctrinal upgrade when either tier 1 or tier 2 have been unlocked for greater Conscript flexibility.

7th man upgrade becomes doctrinal.

In this case I think some of the PPSH abilities could be replaced with SVT if it fits the commander better then 7th man.

Here is how I would revamp the current PPSH commanders. I will also change some other abilities in this example for wholeness sake.


Soviet Reserve Army:

Partisan Tank Hunters 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (fits better then SVT because reserve divisions don't get the newest best equipment)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

For Mother Russia 6CP (ability based on will power and love for the motherland fits the theme well)

ML20 howitzer 8CP


Advanced Warfare:

Radio Intercept 0CP

T34-85 0CP

Weapons Crate Drop 1CP (Advanced semi/fully automatics fit the theme of this commander better then 7th man)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

IL2 Anti Tank Rocket Strafe 10CP (something to replace the garbage gun strafe without having another commander with the loiter one)


Soviet Shock Army

Weapon Crate Drop 0CP (Shock divisions where know for there high amount of automatics so this only makes sense and SVT have less overlap with Shocks compared to PPSH Cons)

120MM Mortar 2CP

Shock Troopers 2CP

B4 203MM howitzer 8CP (the ML20 and the 120MM are too similar in use and effect to warrant to both be in the same commander. The B4 is different enough to the 120MM while still being artillery and fitting the theme of the Shock Army)
.
IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Guards Rifle Combined Arms Tactics

KV1 0CP

Guards Rifle Infantry 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (Fits a dedicated rifle division better, also there are guards to pick up the slack)

ML20 howitzer 8CP

IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Conscript Support Tactics

KV1 0CP

Weapon Crate Drop 1CP (this commander has no elite infantry so more flexible mainlines seem like the better choice)

Commissar Command Squad 2CP (To support you Conscripts, fits the theme)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

Incendiary Artillery barrage 7CP


The best part about these changes is that they in theory would require very little fine tuneing and time investment because it's just swapping abilities around.

Disagree on the IL2 rocket strafe for Advanced Warfare, it is a badly designed ability that shouldn’t spread in other comms. A better addition to this comm would be the IL2 loiter from armoured assault. Also commisar shouldn’t be on conscript support and the B4 doesn’t fit the shock army theme.

One quality of life change I definitely want for the soviets is the ability to call in Guards rifle infantry without the ptrs upgrade and be able to upgrade it for free.

Yeah,ppsh little weak for doctrine ability,7th men little strong for non doctrine,good design
And maybe AT Partisan can be replace by 45AT gun？

Both SVT and 7th man are borderline OP and 7th will be op at CP2.

In addition Commander should provide advantage in one are and all all so both weapon upgrades and premium tanks should not be combined in one commander.

More so adding a powerful off map like AT rocket strafe.


Commander should be at similar power levels so you do not see the same commander over and over.

I posted this idea a while go deep in another tread. I think however that the idea's are good and deserves there own tread.

PPSH upgrade in it's current form becomes a non doctrinal upgrade when either tier 1 or tier 2 have been unlocked for greater Conscript flexibility.

7th man upgrade becomes doctrinal.

In this case I think some of the PPSH abilities could be replaced with SVT if it fits the commander better then 7th man.

Here is how I would revamp the current PPSH commanders. I will also change some other abilities in this example for wholeness sake.


Soviet Reserve Army:

Partisan Tank Hunters 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (fits better then SVT because reserve divisions don't get the newest best equipment)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

For Mother Russia 6CP (ability based on will power and love for the motherland fits the theme well)

ML20 howitzer 8CP


Advanced Warfare:

Radio Intercept 0CP

T34-85 0CP

Weapons Crate Drop 1CP (Advanced semi/fully automatics fit the theme of this commander better then 7th man)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

IL2 Anti Tank Rocket Strafe 10CP (something to replace the garbage gun strafe without having another commander with the loiter one)


Soviet Shock Army

Weapon Crate Drop 0CP (Shock divisions where know for there high amount of automatics so this only makes sense and SVT have less overlap with Shocks compared to PPSH Cons)

120MM Mortar 2CP

Shock Troopers 2CP

B4 203MM howitzer 8CP (the ML20 and the 120MM are too similar in use and effect to warrant to both be in the same commander. The B4 is different enough to the 120MM while still being artillery and fitting the theme of the Shock Army)
.
IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Guards Rifle Combined Arms Tactics

KV1 0CP

Guards Rifle Infantry 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (Fits a dedicated rifle division better, also there are guards to pick up the slack)

ML20 howitzer 8CP

IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Conscript Support Tactics

KV1 0CP

Weapon Crate Drop 1CP (this commander has no elite infantry so more flexible mainlines seem like the better choice)

Commissar Command Squad 2CP (To support you Conscripts, fits the theme)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

Incendiary Artillery barrage 7CP


The best part about these changes is that they in theory would require very little fine tuneing and time investment because it's just swapping abilities around.

I'd like to see the B4 in more than just 1 commander.

Only thing i don't like is the IL-2 rocket strafe change you purpose, i'd much rather change the rocket strafe from the new commander into a regular loiter (but than the AOE one instead of a single run).

Disagree on the IL2 rocket strafe for Advanced Warfare, it is a badly designed ability that shouldn’t spread in other comms. A better addition to this comm would be the IL2 loiter from armoured assault. Also commisar shouldn’t be on conscript support and the B4 doesn’t fit the shock army theme.

One quality of life change I definitely want for the soviets is the ability to call in Guards rifle infantry without the ptrs upgrade and be able to upgrade it for free.

Maybe the IL rocket strafe could be remade to be a soviet copy of the USF Thunderbolt airstrike. While I agree the IL2 loiter is good I think that adding it to this would make it present in too many commanders.

I strongly disagree on your view that the B4 doesn't fit the shock army doctrine however. Shock Armies where the soviet battering ram for tearing holes into enemy lines. These where equipped with higher number of artillery and automatics then other divisions. The B4 fits this theme way better then the ML20 that is already in a number of other doctrines unlike the B4 that is only present in 1.

I don't see why you think the Commissar doesn't fit conscript support. It's entire job in this game is to support infantry. Support that the conscript in this meta could use most off. It would synergies well.

I agree with you point about the Guards PTRS however.

Both SVT and 7th man are borderline OP and 7th will be op at CP2.

In addition Commander should provide advantage in one are and all all so both weapon upgrades and premium tanks should not be combined in one commander.

More so adding a powerful off map like AT rocket strafe.


Commander should be at similar power levels so you do not see the same commander over and over.

SVT and 7th man are not borderline OP they are tools that would make a conscript heavy build more viable. Change to a higher CP is fine to me however.
Also you seem to forget that due to my suggested changes the most likely weapon upgrade on conscripts you would run into is PPSH41. This is besides gameplay also more historically fitting then 7th man or SVT because the soviets made absolute shit loads of them (6,000,000!)

Why should weapon upgrades not be combined with premium tanks? All factions have commanders that do similar things. Such as Wher with G43 and tiger, and OKW with both Tiger and panther and STG44. Advanced warfare as it sits now is almost never used because the PPSH is too situational and the airstrafe is bad.

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Why should weapon upgrades not be combined with premium tanks? All factions have commanders that do similar things. Such as Wher with G43 and tiger, and OKW with both Tiger and panther and STG44. Advanced warfare as it sits now is almost never used because the PPSH is too situational and the airstrafe is bad.

I have written the exact same thing about G43 and Tiger.
IR St44 and Command Panther is separate issues because the upgrade is available only to "elite" infantry not main line and because CP is limited to 1.

The reason why weapon upgrades and Premium should not mix is simply, they provide an early game advantage over other commander and if that advantage can be capitalized with superior armor then the commander will be OP compared to other commander and dominate the meta.

I have written the exact same thing about G43 and Tiger.
IR St44 and Command Panther is separate issues because the upgrade is available only to "elite" infantry not main line and because CP is limited to 1.

The reason why weapon upgrades and Premium should not mix is simply, they provide an early game advantage over other commander and if that advantage can be capitalized with superior armor then the commander will be OP compared to other commander and dominate the meta.

I agree in theory but in practice this doesnt always bear out. Theres no question lightning war is a good commander but it isnt dictating ostheer meta.

We would expect to see conscript support tactics used more often as well since it offers ppsh, kv1 and incendiary barrage. However we do not.

I agree in theory but in practice this doesnt always bear out. Theres no question lightning war is a good commander but it isnt dictating ostheer meta.

No it does not always work like that but that has allot to do with G43 being power creeped...

We would expect to see conscript support tactics used more often as well since it offers ppsh, kv1 and incendiary barrage. However we do not.

You will them once Super heavies are delayed...And incendiary barrage is a mid power barrage, not a power off map and ppsh are power creeped by SVT and 7 men conscripts.


My main point is that one should not look for the best abilities for a commander but for abilities that their total power equals the average commander. Else one is replacing the meta commander instead of increasing the number of meta commanders.

No it does not always work like that but that has allot to do with G43 being power creeped...


You will them once Super heavies are delayed...And incendiary barrage is a mid power barrage, not a power off map and ppsh are power creeped by SVT and 7 men conscripts.


My main point is that one should not look for the best abilities for a commander but for abilities that their total power equals the average commander. Else one is replacing the meta commander instead of increasing the number of meta commanders.

You may want to be more clear with your wording then. You did not specify super heavies, only premium vehicles. You did not specify aircraft loiters, only "powerful" off maps which depending on if you factor in dropping it on retreat paths, the incendiary strike could be considered quite strong and flexible.

I really like the changes proposed! I really hope the balance team sees this. It would make the doctrines feel a lot more thematic. Sov really needs some changes to infantry, not necessarily buffs, but changes. I mean cons should have a stock weapon upgrade to be in line with the other main line infantry units. Oh and the PTRS being a free upgrade for guards, as someone else said, would be great!

Both SVT and 7th man are borderline OP and 7th will be op at CP2.

conscripts being OP is an insane assertion... it simply keeps them on par with the weapon upgrades present in all other allied nations...

mind you SVT conscripts still lose in shootouts vs LMG grens at medium-long ranges... and are still bodied by STGs at close ranges...

7 man also loses to LMG grens and STG volks even when in cover at the aforementioned ranges... the only real difference comes when the conscripts reach vet 2-3 and get that 40% target size bonus...

conscripts being OP is an insane assertion... it simply keeps them on par with the weapon upgrades present in all other allied nations...

mind you SVT conscripts still lose in shootouts vs LMG grens at medium-long ranges... and are still bodied by STGs at close ranges...

7 man also loses to LMG grens and STG volks even when in cover at the aforementioned ranges... the only real difference comes when the conscripts reach vet 2-3 and get that 40% target size bonus...

And all other allied faction where designed having weapon upgrades while soviet where not...
The fact that ppsh upgrade that at time was dimmed OP was moved from CP 3 to CP2 speaks volumes about the power creep that has been going on and buff that has been going thru the roof.

And all other allied faction where designed having weapon upgrades while soviet where not...

Which led to the situation, where soviets got stock weapon upgrades, because soviet design proved to not work at all regardless of adjustments to base units. You're also talking about a time, where we still had extremely flawed "you need to pick a doc to even be competitive as soviets" era, which again is completely irrelevant now.

Design changed massively and so did the faction since the time when soviets were designed to be without upgrades.
It lost OP gimmicks and was compensated with stock upgrades and buffs to stock army over time.

Sure, there was a power creep, you're right about that.

No, its not going anywhere, because its easier to adjust 1 unit up then 20+ down and you had that explained to you many times by multiple people, including balance team members.

Why do you think falls were buffed instead of volks, jli, obers, PFs being nerfed to make falls viable choice?

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No, its not going anywhere, because its easier to adjust 1 unit up then 20+ down and you had that explained to you many times by multiple people, including balance team members.
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And that is simply not the case since with each patch more units are being buffed.

And that is simply not the case since with each patch more units are being buffed.

But.... that's exactly what I've said....

But.... that's exactly what I've said....

No it not you said is "its easier to adjust 1 unit up then 20+ down" and my point is that instead of adjusting a couple of units down or up the patches have adjusted 50+ unit way up and they still continue to do so with the units that have not been touch so far. See fallj/Riflemen as the latest offenders

And balance is not about being easy but about improving the game. There is nothing easier than cloning all the factions to be the same and thus "balanced".

Finally you do not to speak on behalf the balance team thus provide "quotes" from balance team if you want to use their opinion as your argument.

Now pls stop derailing this thread with "what I said" posts.

Have a nice day.

id personally would like to see for the motherland in reserve tactics. it certainly fits infantry focused playstyle and would give quite punch when you add ppshs into picture. In fact, i wonder what kind of nightmare ftm + rapid conscription would be

The only good thing in this thread is making guard rifles be able to buy their PTRS for free

For a squad with such a decent moving Mosin profile, they sure do only ever have one or two of them to fire most of the time.