Hi Aaron,
SU-85s are very strong but certainly not OP. There are many counters to it as listed by you. Panzershrecks, panzer 4 flanks, paks, fausts and so on. The trouble for the Ostheer player is actually combining these together to effectively deal with the SU-85, which is difficult as any 1 of these counters alone would not be enough to deal with SU-85s. That I think is your problem.
Btw a problem is that since the game is so young and the meta has not been defined yet, I will change my BOs multiple times. I have discovered a much better BO for Germans:
T1->gren->mg->gren->mg->gren->T2
Forget about the flamer halftrack, upgrade your grens with lmgs as you can vet them up and steamroll through the conscripts. Get a halftrack but no need to upgrade them with flamers unless you see maxims. Use it to reinforce. Get scout cars preferbly 2 if you see enemy scout cars. Scout cars are very good at killing infantry when you have 2 of them together as you can kite with them so long as you're careful not getting them AT naded. Otherwise get more panzergrenadiers and tech to T3. Try this BO, it's less micro-intensive then the other BO I gave you and I think you should have more success with it.
Now on to dealing with the SU-85:
Now SU-85s are expensive so there is a long window in which the soviet player has only 1 SU-85 on the field. That's when it is most vulnerable and you can usually finish it off with 2-way panzer 4 flank. You should also have been harassing the fuel all game as panzer 4s are going to be your main counter to SU-85. If you only have 1 panzer 4 don't bother charging it unless it's on low health or you can flank it, just keep your panzer 4 on the sides away from the SU-85 to kill harassing soviet infantry. Don't overextend your panzer 4s, make sure you keep a route open to escape until you're ready to send and all out assault to kill the SU-85s. Once the SU-85s go down you can roll into the enemy base and win.
If you don't have the fuel for panzer 4 spam. Then upgrade panzershrecks. Vetted panzershrecks do alot of damage and SU-85s can't kill panzershrecks fast enough. With mg support you can run past the soviet infantry, and damage the SU-85 enough to force it to back away to be repaired. If you group up 2 panzershreck squads you can easily take it out. Also remember to move up your pak with the army to take a few shots at the SU-85 if you have a pak.
If the enemy gets 2 SU-85s you have done something wrong long before if you're not winning. SU-85s are still pretty bad against infantry and if you can't deal with them just spam grenadiers and cap the vps. Otherwise you can go for pak 43 or even the elefant by skipping T3.
You can watch a few replays from the tourney from CondemnationWings who used elefants to counter SU-85s. However it won't work if the opponent knows it's coming as they can counter with T3.
Honestly there are so many ways to take out an SU-85 that it's almost impossible for me to write them all down fully. The trick is combining all these together, charging with panzershrecks, move up the pak, flank around with panzer 4s... If you post a replay I can check where exactly you went wrong. Otherwise if you really can't deal with it, spam grenadiers and keep your armour to the sides of the map away from SU-85s.
Keep up refining your BOs and getting used to getting your units on the field. We can start working on your micro now and winning games
Profile of S73v0
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Register Time: 18 Nov 2012, 23:53 PM
Last Visit Time: 4 Aug 2014, 05:43 AM
Broadcast: https://www.twitch.tv/34d517
Nationality: Australia
Game Name: S73v0
Register Time: 18 Nov 2012, 23:53 PM
Last Visit Time: 4 Aug 2014, 05:43 AM
Broadcast: https://www.twitch.tv/34d517
Nationality: Australia
Game Name: S73v0
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Post History of S73v0
Thread: S73v0 - heals93, Stonethecrow01, Alecino10110 Aug 2013, 11:10 AM
In: Mentoring |
Thread: S73v0 - heals93, Stonethecrow01, Alecino10110 Aug 2013, 07:12 AM
(SU)Ozena vs (OH)Paradox I hate this map with a passion. Imo mgs rock this map so as soviets I will either go for a sniper car start or a start involving quick maxims similar to your current T2 build. The sniper car start is with your starting engineer immediately build T1 then build a sniper and then an m3. Use your sniper car to harass the mg and grens microing it around. After the sniper car you get 3 cons. If he goes for gren spam switch into conscript spam with molotovs and ppshes. If he goes for T2 get guards and plant mines to kill the scout car. The advantage of the sniper car is that you get your sniper on the field much earlier and do much more damage. The disadvantage is that you lose field presence at the start. But it can negate the grens upgraded with lmgs that everyone is going nowadays which just rips apart cons by themselves. I haven't found clowncars with flamers to be very effective this patch as a faust and a bit of focus fire can take them down quickly. Don't charge them in unless there is only 1 unit or unless you have a lot of con support. A sniper car will allow you tee off with no danger to the scout car unless he gets a his own AC. Losing a clown car without it doing anything really slows down your teching as soviets. In this game I think you managed to match your opponent, and at the end you could have won if you could have kept your pressure up. Especially your sniper was your hero and was able to inflict alot of damage. But you lost on vps and I think this is mostly due to you not capping them at the start. So yeah work on your capping order and make sure you don't neglect the vps. Nice job harassing the fuel and holding it for a long time, but yea just cons on this map is pretty bad so you lost it back again quite quickly. Gj getting healing quickly as some of your squads were pretty low health. When your troops are like that always consider getting healing instead of teching as it can really pay off late into the game. Remember to get AT nades when you see the halftrack. It can really pay off and allow you to punish an opponent when he plays incorrectly. My first vehicle out of T4 wouldn't have been the SU-85. Those vetted lmg grens were giving you alot of trouble. Get the SU-76 instead for the arty or even the katyusha. He was pinning you in your base and since you had the fuel for a long time you know can get the SU-85 out afterwards in time to counter the p4. The SU-85 could only counter the halftrack but its tough without infantry support and with the pak on the field. You got the pak. That is very good. Remember to repair it up. This is the point where I would have made my comeback as a pak and a SU-85 with mines, AT nades and button would have been able to counter axis armour coming. I would have gotten more conscripts combined with sniper to overwhelm the ostheer infantry. Merge your conscripts with the pak to keep the pak healthy. Still haven't got AT nades... Remember it's a must have upgrade as soviets against armour. The pak was decrewed. You're still having trouble against the vetted grens. I would consider getting molotovs and more conscripts to deal with that. It would have helped to get a different doctrine with ppshes as the only thing you got out of your doctrine was the mortar and mark target. Ouch the panther rolled onto the field and you're SU-85 was fausted and your pak was still decrewed in your base. This was when you lost the game. Make sure to keep your pak healthy even making a conscript squad to recrew it would have been good and remember to repair the pak. You wasted your munis on mark target when all your AT was gone. You made a penal, I would have gotten cons to get the pak but at this point you were low on vps and not much you can do. Gg wp. To conclude:
Otherwise your sniper play was good, your fuel harass at the beginning was good. Just have to learn to play late game and defensive against a good player. Also please post any thoughts you had on the game as it allows me to focus on things that you are having alot of trouble with instead of rambling on things you already know. If you have any questions feel free to ask. In: Mentoring |
Thread: Penal Battalions9 Aug 2013, 11:12 AM
Penals need more armour I think, they cost so much more than conscripts yet have the same armour as conscripts. Otherwise I think they are a pretty good late game anti-inf unit especially if you went for a doc with guards not shocks. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Blizzard 'Kills' XP awarded to last-hit unit7 Aug 2013, 08:21 AM
TradeMrk and Doomlord52 the new mythbusters? In: COH2 Bugs |
Thread: Abandoned vehicles vet stack bug7 Aug 2013, 04:18 AM
Wow nice testing Doomlord52! Already a vet 3 p4 tank can pretty much solo an entire army. Anything vet 4 or higher is pretty much invincible and almost instant-win. Relic should make it so that the vet is lost once the tank is decrewed. That would fix the problem I think. In: COH2 Bugs |
Thread: Abandoned vehicles vet stack bug6 Aug 2013, 11:30 AM
You'll see somewhere in the game when he first captures the p4 I sent my vanilla p4 against the vetless but skirted p4 my opponent had. And you could clearly see that my p4 was completely destroyed by the skirted p4. Once he killed my p4 he started stacking vet and by the time he got vet 2 hardly anything did damage to it. In: COH2 Bugs |
Thread: S73v0 - heals93, Stonethecrow01, Alecino1016 Aug 2013, 11:26 AM
(SU)Ozena vs (OH)Love-Glory-Peace So Langres is a tough map for soviets. I usually conscript spam on it with molotovs and be really aggressive to try and do lots of damage as once Ostheer locks down the right hand side it can be difficult to dislodge without some crazy flank or artillery. So you went 3 conscripts to T2. I wouldn't send all my first conscripts to the left side though. I would send them to the right hand side as stated before once ostheer takes the right handside it is difficult to dislodge. I think taking the house at the start is very important as you can see what the Ostheer player is doing without getting pushed off. You're flanks at the start weren't very good. One conscript walked into an mg and the other went for the cutoff but got pushed off by two grens. Use oorah to get your conscript behind the hedge and keep it in the game as especially early game presence on the field is important. There was a point near the middle where one of your squads got suppressed at max range in cover and you retreated immediately. I think you should leave conscripts suppressed as long as you can as 1. you see what the ostheer player is doing. 2. you tie up one of his units for longer. 3. you open up an opportunity for a flank. Remember that retreating means that you have lost the fight and when you're pinned there is a period of time when you take little damage so stick around a little bit under fire unless you have nothing to gain from it. You should have sent your first maxim to cover your cutoff since you knew he was going for it. That would have prevented the second cut-off move. I also find the early mortar quite useless until it gets vet 1 when the precision barrage can wipe out mg squads. So note that when purchasing the mortar you shouldn't expect it to do much work until later on unless you get incredibly lucky ofc. Nice job taking out a pio, your opponent also got a sniper. German snipers are quite effective against T2 as you have no access to scout cars or snipers. Note that this could be a weakness of your strategy. I would tech to T4 to get arty to counter it or pray that the opponent can't micro. You got the AT gun to counter the halftrack but used all your munitions on barrage. This was a very bad mistake. You can use it once in a while but you used it 3 times in a row and blew through 180 of your munitions which could have been used on mines. If you want arty go for T4 and get SU-76s whose arty barrage is free. I would have moved the AT gun to a position where it can take out the halftrack, unfortunately you lost your maxim to it which was quite bad. You took out an mg but couldn't capture it because of the sniper and halftrack. By the time you moved your AT gun up you had no infantry to cover it as they all had retreated. If you had saved your munis and instead planted mines around your AT gun and cutoff you could have defended your side of the map. You managed to stockpile alot of fuel which was good since the opponent only focussed on the cutoffs and not resources. I would have gotten T4 alot earlier and gotten SU-76. You could even have forgotten the AT gun and instead call in a guard squad as you had the fuel to counter the halftrack. Why didn't you get AT nades? Probably your biggest mistake. Always get AT nades against the halftrack or any vehicle play from Ostheer. You could have come back if you had it as he drove into your base with the halftrack you could have killed it with AT nades and guards and get 2-3 SU-76s barraging everything. Also a few more mines could have protected the infantry and halftrack from flanking your AT gun. Other than that keep up the good work, try out some other builds as well like conscript spam or T1 starts and find what suits you best and what counters what. GL HF. To conclude:
In: Mentoring |
Thread: S73v0 - heals93, Stonethecrow01, Alecino1015 Aug 2013, 13:44 PM
Cool, I will have a look at it by Wednesday. In: Mentoring |
Thread: Attention players!4 Aug 2013, 19:01 PM
Damn it my hopes have been dashed yet again |
Thread: How does smoke work?4 Aug 2013, 17:51 PM
Imo smoke should also be an accuracy debuff for units shooting through it just like in coh1. The coh2 true sight sometimes doesn't make sense In: COH2 Gameplay |
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