Profile of elchino7

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1- Then why bring Volks Kar into the discussion when they have already been like that since rework and have a completely different early game unit interaction. From what i can remember cons openings have fallen in disgrace against OKW since either Maxim spam and now Penals have been meta and against OH, it was basically an RNG duel or whoever screwed cover play. Either Cons snap a gren model (either through target prioritisation or luck) or Grens killed models faster. This is why i say that even if they have practically the same DPS other than 10 range exactly, the dinamic is gonna be different.

2- People spammed hoorah when it was 5muni and you could rush buildings in the game. Try to keep spamming hoorah at every single engagement and you are gonna be dry of it. You also lose your 50% dps while running.

3- Doctrinal weapon upgrade + hoorah + molotov. This is what you are telling me will defeat easily Grens? They are still gonna have the most obvious wind up throw animation. If there's an issue is in vet 3 with PPSH vs Grens late game. But then again same concept could be said about G43.

4- Makes sense for you. Conscript match up against Grens was always like: Cons close = win. Mid = RNG. Far = Lose. Against pre rework i think it was unless you screw cover play you win.
Just in case, we are talking about Optimal engagement range when fighting against Kar98.

5- Conscripts are support units just like they were when maxims reign. You are not telling me anything new. We will see if the Penal nerf and change to satchel will make people go back into 3/5 con strats or try to mix 2 cons/penals.

6- Near range is at 8 (using Cruzz chart). If current Pio can win at point blank, they will still win at 8 range.

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He is talking about 10 range DPS from Mosin. 3.43 vs 2.52 Roughly ±36%.If you account for the slight overkill it's barely 30%.

@Vipper just in case cause i re-read what i wrote. I agree on keeping basically the same DPS values which means reducing the 10 range DPS and increasing the long range UNLESS that's the whole point of the new Conscripts of been more effective at close range.
What i don't agree, at least at the moment, that this is a problematic situation BEFORE WE CAN EVEN SEE the changes been implemented.

12 Same as the VGs K98...

If you want to remove the affect of overkill multiply DPS by 95%.

The overkill will mean much less for the PPsh conscripts.

The issue here is why should a units with bolt action rifles have to move to range 10 for optimum results?

But current Volks are OP cause they scale with STG44 and they are fighting in tandem with Kubel/Sturmpios. Both units which IIRC have focus fire false and have low damage high rof which spreads out damage. Volks work because they scale, that's not the case for Conscripts which fall flat as the game progress.

It seems you don't get the importance of early engagements and exact kill damage. Current Conscripts win engagements cause they can snap models by having RNG on your side, specially if they are defending.
For the PPSH comparison, you also miss that as the conscript squad loses models, their DPS will lower even more prior to pre patch which is fine (PPSH vet 3 cons are pretty good).

It seems you are more concerned about DPS curves rather than how they will behave ingame. I found it weird that Conscripts are gonna get a damage model more akin to a SMG/Carbine but at the same time i found it weird that conscripts optimal range was 20/25 instead of CQC against other main line infantry.

I say wait till we have the patch to see how current Conscripts feel out.

PD: i found it also misleading that you mention Pios as a comparison on the 10/15 range, when they have a meaningful DPS till range 8 which then has a BIG drop off.

Invest in PV shares cause this will be Penal 2.0 debacle. Also Jacksons.

Anyway: i don't have the calculator at hand but is the DPS from Conscripts equal as it's now meaning that it's an overall nerf in the early/opening game?
80/16 > 5 shots
80/12 > 7 shots
I guess this get's offset by the other buffs.

RET mines: how do they work? They need 3 to crit ? Is there a damage/crit cap ? IIRC these were really buggy.

Trenches: increased size on UKF trench ?

You have to understand that there are different kinds of back n forths regarding vehicles rushes/stages which can be heavily determined by who has the map resource advantage.

Working by memory it goes something like this:

1- Kubel-Bren Carrier. BC kills kubels. Get's countered by any of the following vehicles.
2- Dodge-M3A1(SU)
2.5- 60/90muni timing. BC gets upgraded and SU gets flamer clowncar.
3- 222-M20
3.5- FHT/AAHT/Flak HT. Not sure about Greyhound but who use it lol. Same with HT (USF).
4- P2-AEC-M5 AA (SU)
4.5- Puma-Stuart >> T70/Su76 (meaning later).
5- Medium tanks UKF>USF>SU=OH>OKW

Countering the 222 is not as drastic as having to do so against the P2 (which arrives later but faster than others light tanks). If your concern is SU, the points mention by other users are more than enough (Nosliw)
If you go for Penals, take into consideration how much you want to pump out in PTRS cause that is a no returning point. Against a 222, either proper small arm fire and cover play can deal with it. A single Penal squad is more than enough to deter it till you tech. Against a possible FHT, it's more of a mindgame of whether or not the OH is gonna upgrade it.
Against OKW P2, you should be using a variety of tools to deal with it. Don't over-commit or rely on a single type of AT source.

When it comes to DPS and DPS vet bonuses I don't really see how they are more OP when compared to Penals, since Penal will probably achieve vet 3 faster and will be more power at vet 3 than PF.

Because DPS is not the stat to rule them all. Performance of units is relative to faction and cost opportunity. For ex: if any faction other than USF had Paratroopers, i bet we would see them more frequently. Same with the commander/tier they are part from.

The problem i see with Penals is the fact that you ONLY get penals instead of a mix bag with conscripts. One could play with vet requirements for sure, but if more, why would i even bother going T1. And if that would be the case, why i would even play SU at that point (unless other changes are done).

If one reads my previous post one will see that imo compared to grenadiers (the benchmark) this unis is OP.
Once more imo has to first set the level and balance the stock units that are available before minute and then fine tune doctrinal units.

Mainline infantry should be comparable not equal.

For instance Riflemen where designed as infantry that is OP because their support weapons where UP. Since the latest patches tented to improve the cost efficiency of USF support weapons Riflemen need to become a bit less OP.

Answering both quotes.

Grenadiers are not isolated unit. They are replaced by Prosttruppen (haha Assault Grens) or combined with Pio/MG42/Sniper/Mortar.

Going back to USF, you can't field support weapons at the same time. By the time you can hit a .50 cal, you are barely ahead of a fast T2 timing. Early on you work with RE/Rifles/Mortar (which was rightfully nerfed). If you are hipster enough, Dodge/AssEngi/Path. When you have to hit Rifles with the nerf hammer, i'll rather it be BARs to make them to be more ARs performance wise -close/mid range-. (this would hit other ARs long performance as well). PD: power also comes from freebies.

I'll say both UK/OKW main line infantry are not an issue early on as much as when you hit critical mass with vet/upgrades.

SU is stack with an old outdated model of upgrades for Conscripts (still shit performance unless mass PPSH). For the early game, you are either stack with Conscripts with upgrades, going T1 or getting T2. You can hit Penals in a different way rather than sheer performance. Field presence early on (build time) and/or the call ins which makes transition to mid game good (this is another can of worms).

Easy fixes like pop, sight and permanent sprint can be implement regardless.

At the end of the day, this is all that should be done if there was any patch in the horizon. You could argue there is some place for weapon slots but as you say, other things are fine tuning.