The problem is, the current meta is "60 range-TDs". After the Tiger is nerfed, OST really isn't going to have all that much in terms of vehicle based AI that will actually work in late game. Ostwinds and P4s will get deleted by M36s, SU85s and even FFs.
Which is "fine" in the sense that they won't get their units 2 shotted by heavies. They have better tools to deal with those than say a vet 2 50 range IS2. |
Very questionable statement TBH.
First of all I have never seen anyone build 3 Churchills in any game mode ever.
Second Axis has a million counters to Churchills. I don't know why anyone would think they don't.
Saying 3 Churchills is OP in 3v3 and 4v4 seems very strange to me when Axis fields Tigers, Elefants, JT, Panthers in every 3v3 and 4v4 and all of them eat Churchills for breakfast.
CpSprice probably. Polish OP |
There is only one thing I am sure about: Ost will collapse after the Tiger nerfs. The lack of lategame will become evident once you can't rely on the Tiger as much.
What broke Ost was the nerfs to their lategame gimmicks over the last years. It started with Elefant nerfs years ago. Then there was a Panther. The community complained but Panther wasn't buffed but only adjusted. Vet 2 was then nerfed on most tanks. Spotting scopes were nerfed. The command Panzer IV aura was nerfed. The LeFH was nerfed. The Brummbär was nerfed. All small stuff that made Ost good lategame.
What was the nail in the coffin were the heavy buffs for Allies (KV1 and Churchill, Pershing). At that point Ostheer did not hold their supposed lategame advantage any longer... which was the whole point of playing the faction in the first place.
This looks like a teamgame issue where OH is not as gimped as in 1v1 and can compete. People keep bringing this whole "i got to lategame therefore i win" mentality when that design was dropped in 2014/2015.
If the GOTO meta is not IS2 and Pershing, then OH won't suffer as much the lack of Tiger at all.
OH shined and remain stronger than other factions in 3 different stages:
-Mobile defense
-Sniper/222 meta
-Brummbar meta.
Maybe some short lived patches such as rework Ostwind.
The problem has always been early light vehicle meta and then heavy meta post Stug nerf.
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I did not meant that you said but if you check the post the "T-70 is expensive and needs to be OP" is repeated again and again.
I did not check that math and I guess they are fine, but I fail to see the relevance to T-70. If OKW are highly MP efficient nerf them instead of buffing the other factions...
Your point: let's nerf T70 performance and make it cheaper.
My point: the offensive performance is there because SU has to spend shit ton of mp to unlock it and it arrives way later than all other light vehicles in the game.
No amount of cost reduction on the unit is gonna make it work. I purposely added USF as a comparison as well.
Could had done the same with UKF AEC but thought it was already enough. And OH doesn't have a light tank at all. |
snip
My point is simply T-70 performance is being justified due to its cost so simply reduce cost
Read again. Read carefully. It's not the T70 cost, it's the timing at which it appears and the equivalent amount of resources you pay at that point of the game (not total tech cost).
OKW:
4/5 units into P2
Truck: 15f 70mp
Mechanized: 45f 200mp
P2: 60f 265mp
Medic HQ: 200/25
Flak HT: 270/50
Healing: 45mu x stack
-10f initial
50f 270mp on tech
110f 535mp invested for a P2
USF:
3 Rifles, LT, support weapon/ambulance, into Stuart
LT: 35f 250mp
Upgrade: 20f 50mp
Ambulance: 10f 250mp
Weapon: 15f 150mp
Stuart: 70f 270mp
M20: 240/20
AAHT: 310/50
-20f initial
No ambulance, no weapon: 35f 300mp
With ambulance: 45f 550mp
Stuart no ambu: 105f 570mp
Including Ambu: 115f 820mp
Adding weapon: 130f 970mp
SU:
Either T1 opening or 3/4 Conscript with upgrades and T2/Doctrinal unit
T1: 10f 160mp
T2: 15f 160mp
Medics: 250mp
Molotovs: 10f 80mp
AT nade: 10f 125mp
T3: 85f 240mp
T70: 70f 260mp
-20f initial
T1 route with medic: 75f 650mp
T70: 145f 910mp
Conscript route, with upgrades T2: 100f 855mp
T70: 170f 1115mp
(you could discount molotov but i don't think it's realistic to skip AT nades)
OKW can play with 1/2 medic stacks through the early-mid game and will later or not back tech to medics which are expensive (Truck + Battle HQ + Medic = 55f 370mp) but this kind of teching let's them to be highly mp efficient early on while having access to a complete roster of tools (nades, snare, weapon, MG, AT).
PD: if i made any number mistake, MB. No malicious intent, just that i wrote this posts at different times and doing the math mentally.
Edit: adding OH / UKF
T1: 80/10
BP1: 100/40
Medic bunker: 150/0/60
T2: 100/20
222: 200/30
FHT: 200/30/90
-20f
T1, Medic, BP1, T2: 430/50
222/250: 630/80
Prostruppen/AG/Pio skip T1, Medic, BP1, T2: 350/40
222/250: 550/70
Bolster: 150/35
Grenades: 100/10
Weapons: 150/15
PCP: 180/30
AEC Req: 100/15
Aec: 280/60
Starting: -20f
Bolster, PCP, Aec req: 430/60
AEC: 710/120
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Depending on the arrivel of AT-options. Luchs need to be way more close to be effective while T70 can operate on safe distance versus AI, even AT-inf. While Zis3 can support your AI Püppchen and PaK40 can't. T70 is an op troll vehicle, like clown-car. With all that other cost-effective stuff T70 overperforms, depending in map and RNG (hitting or not hitting...)
I don't say that because I can't deal with them, I say it because I know the stats and I am modding. And there are many things never should be made like they are ingame, for all fractions. T70 is one it.
But yes, all medium-lights arrive too early, while real lights became obsolet without real late-game useability.
I'm saying that if Soviet had a P2 on the field at the same time OKW can field one, it would be more broken than having 10 min T70 rush. |
AEC is AT specialist, it never deserved to have high AI.
Stuart is supposed to be generalist, good vs inf and good vs vehicles, not nowhere near dedicated vehicles like Puma or Luchs/T-70.
T-70 is AI specialist that needs 30 seconds of constant shooting to kill 222.
I'm just describing the situation we had. AEC spam meta or Stuart for most of it's life cycle after first set of buffs after release.
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Useability. If Luchs had stats of T70 lol community would cry like babies because of OPnes.
Same could be said other way round. |
Only question is vs which opponents/commanders and on which maps you employ this.
USF: unless M20, you don't want the 222 and probably go for FHT.
UKF/SU: probably as described before.
We're not ignoring anything. We're well aware that the Puma change might bring back the MobiDef meta. But given the changes to the Command P4 as well as giving the Puma a build timer, we'd like to give the Puma another chance because it's a shame that this unique unit never sees any use anymore. And in the poll, 85% of those who voted wanted the Puma in MobiDef to return in some form or another.
Sometimes balancing the game is to take a gamble and see how things turn out, and we're willing to take this one because it can easily be reverted if it backfires.
Making Mobile defense meta is treating the symptoms and not the cause.
People have brought the T70 as a topic because in the last years, the AEC and Stuart AI has been nerfed to no longer represent a dangerous threat which more or less fixed the issue.
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Simply lower the power level.
Less lethal at lower price.
The problem is not the T70 cost, it's T3 fuel cost on top of basic upgrades such as AT nades + Molotovs.
Counter argument: move the cost to T4
Counter counter argument: say we "nerf" the T70 to P2 levels of performance and equal timing. NO ONE would want to face a soviet P2 at the same timing as OKW puts it on the field. |
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