So basically even a light car can end the game now.
Panzerfaust: Costs more than its equivalents and is locked behind a slow teching (Compared to SU/OST, early-early game)
STG Sidegrade: Around %20 increased damage @ close range and zero improvement at long range, the distance volks are supposed to excel at. You shouldn't pay 60 munis just to get two downgraded versions of sturmpioneers MP44s. They already got 4, and for free.
Panzershreck: How about just creating a new "AT" unit instead of overloading sturmpioneers with their hefty reinforce cost. EDIT:Actually it is fine on sturms, since it seems to be an improved version, also sturms have some use past the 5 minute mark. So this is a non-issue.
Medics: As stressed out by every one else, the fuel cost is just silly, given the fact that they will be bleeding early game due to heavy light car domination.
M1 81mm: USF does not need this. Just reduce the price for teching nades and remove this new cheese altogether. It is Single–handedly negating %99 of the core CoH2 design and gameplay elements. They have the most broken howitzer in game already so there is no justification for adding this, and specially in HQ! WTF. So either remove this or remove ostheer T1 and T2 buildings altogether. The MG34 at 2-3CP makes zero sense as well, as long as this unit exists.
And now some suggestions.
Allow OKW to build caches: Since the asymmetrical aspects of the design have been buried long time ago and now that OST can build sandbags, USF can build mortars and both the SU and USF have an excellent early/mid/late game (contray to their original design), there is nothing wrong with allowing OKW to build caches.
Either reduce the cost for using the panzerfaust, double the damage or remove the teching requirement. Or captain molo apprentices will reign supreme again.
Move obers to Tier 2, or buff volks damage up to 14-15
SEGA executives misjudged the gaming industry and the FTP business model. My first rule, never put executives in charge of the gaming/art industry if they are not gamers themselves. Gaming is the art industry and SEGA can't run it like a normal corporation.
In Asia, it's obvious with Riot(Tencent Holding)/Valve/Nexon which business model are going to succeed on PC. But in the West many devs/publishers are still playing catch up to Asia.
Back at EA, I used to get lectured by business development people about how we have to have a portfolio strategy of games, because we have no idea what’s going to do well. I said, “You have no idea what’s going to do well because you’re not a gamer and you don’t care about games. You have no confidence in your ability to make good games.” How did we let our industry get taken over by the BD people? I was a BD person at the time, but at least I played games.
I feel like maybe there’s light at the end of the tunnel. A few of us in-game companies are really focused on gameplay. That’s where we’re focused.
GamesBeat: When you say “five bad years,” you don’t mean about profits or revenues, I take it? There was a lot of interesting growth in that five years. Mahoney: The core of our business is a creative business. We make our money by making art. You have to ask yourself, in this industry, are you making good art? When I say five bad years, I think there was precious little good art coming out of the industry. Not across the board. There was some awesome stuff. But that’s not where the majority of the people you would see in these halls were focusing their time and attention.
It’s certainly not what the investors were asking about. They weren’t asking, “Where is the creative, good art coming from? Where is the next beautiful game coming from?”
With COH1, HW and DOW Relic used to have a well-respected player reputation but with SEGA being so terrible at COH2 marketing that reputation has been seriously tainted same as Creative Assembly. What SEGA west did with COH2 + Total War Rome2 was to merge the worst from both worlds with retail + EA DLC marketing (DLC money grabbing that affects core gameplay).
Nexon XP’s Min Kim and DICE chairman - Kitchen Meets World (#DICE2014 Europe)
Kim, formerly CEO of Nexon America, and Moravek, former head of live operations, will work with developers on such games as Dirty Bomb from Splash Damage, Project BlueStreak from Boss Key Productions (headed by Gears of War creator Cliff Bleszinski), and an unannounced title from United Front Games.
In comparison, some of the Valve/Riot/Nexon similar customization (that don't affect core gameplay) you see in the COH2 launch (2013) actual came from THQ/Relic Labs FTP business model (Ron Moravek was involved, Relic co-founder).
Adrian headed up Relic Labs, an internal group at THQ developer Relic Entertainment, where he developed innovative new game concepts utilizing emergent themes such as casual gaming, Web 2.0 and free-to-play business models.
With COH2 WFA 2014 you got the SEGA/EA business model being fully implemented with increased focus on DLC commanders. Since WFA, the Valve/Riot/Nexon business model was changed in favor of more DLC commanders. Only just recently Relic have gone back to focus on more skins and to further monetize customization/modding.
THQ had some good talent but not enough money to be innovative and experiment with AAA games. With Sega Sammy Holdings owned by one of the richest CEOs in Japan (Hajime Satomi). http://www.forbes.com/profile/hajime-satomi/
SEGA got the money to invest into quality gaming but lack marketing talent. Former Relic Co-founder Ron Moravek was recruited by THQ as "turn around" executive staff
Hired as part of "turn around" executive staff to be responsible for worldwide development of all THQ products for both internal studios and third parties. Helped pivot the organization to new business models, the new structure to increase the overall quality and profitability of the products. Unfortunately, we were unable to raise the sufficient funds on a very tight timeline and filed for Chapter 11.
-SNIP- * Worked to drive new Milestone process based on new game requirements including F2P, consumables, stores, DLC, GAAS, etc.
Former THQ Executive Vice President Production, also former Relic co-founder/studio boss and former top Nexon/EA executives Linkedin Profile
Relics founder Alex Garden was involved with Nexon Asian FTP business model in early 2000s and left Relic to join Nexon. Nexon NA is also run by a bunch of former THQ and Relic. Such as Rich Williams President, Nexon America and Paula Fellbaum (former top Relic/THQ Director, Human Resources, External Studios). Nexon is primary FTP top Asian publisher in South Korea, China, Japan.
Nexon Arena video advertisement 2014 Nexon Arena is the world’s first dedicated e-sports stadium, established and operating by a game company. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzFfEvViaPc
Valve has done the opposite than EA/SEGA with CS GO (merging the best from both worlds) which is their third generation "FTP" business model (TF is first, Dota second).
Outside COH2, Dota2 is the nr.1 and CS GO second most played game. 41.52% of the COH2 player base have DOTA2 installed and 47.32% own CS GO. In the last 2 weeks playtime (COH2 Owners: 1,857,116)
1. 13.81% played CS GO
2. 6.04% played Dota 2
3. 4.27% played Fallout
4. 3.79% played War thunder
Playtime total based on COH2 player base:
COH2 65 hours (average)
Dota2 335 hours (average)
CS GO 233 hours (average)
Total War: ROME II 127 hours (average)
For the whole DOTA2 player base (Players total: 69,004,323) the Playtime total: 204 hours.
That's pretty significant as it shows, COH2 players playing Dota2 131 hours more than the average Dota2 player.
CS GO Players total: 20,716,102
18.76% also play Heroes & Generals (WW2 ftp game)
Source: http://steamspy.com/app/231430
(some features of Steam Spy are only available to registered users, free sign up)
+1 but just go with the flow mate. Player count is going down and this game will die in a year or two (max). And by die I mean very very very few players playing this game.
For hardcore PC games, this is pretty normal based on seasonal changes in Europe and NA which are the primary market for COH2 (US, UK, Germany, Russia, Canada are top5). http://steamspy.com/app/231430
Perhaps except mobile casual gaming during the summer time, PC gaming takes the backseat. Then during the winter months, many COH2 players are stuck indoors where there is little to do each night.
So I think the best system is one where you have a dev team that listens to player feedback but is able to step back from the game and make more impartial decisions. Having a few community members to act as a kind of liaison who collate issues and propose possible solutions is good, but final say should rest with someone who isn't so attached to the game.
As for maps though, community maps are great and I support more of that.
+1
Too much fanboyism in open balances discussions to reach a good general consensus.
Get a group of community trusted members to sign an NDA so they can act as liaisons between Relic and sort through all the community balances discussions (twitch, youtube, COH2.org, Reddit etc.). It saves Relic time not having to sort through all the balances discussions by themselves.
Bleh, this game is apparently way too complex for me. Despite my terrible stats I still get matched against people that roflstomp me. The same thing happens over and over again, I start out well, then the enemy gets back into the game through superior tactics and wins. My initial impression seems to hold: you either were here from the beginning or you're fodder.
Thx for sharing your experience. Constructive feedback from new players can help developers and the community to understand the obstacles that prevent COH from growing in popularity.
IMO, with a decent mentor and COH guides, new players can learn the game much more quickly than uncoached players.
Yes, COH2 have a steep learning curve but it flatlines much earlier than SC2 that has a pretty extreme skill ceiling. COH2 emphasis decision making without necessarily dumbing the game down.
I’ve explained here how (someone who works at Blizzard informed me) that during testing of Starcraft 2 there was a joke setting speed. Yet, this became the ‘default speed’ of the game to the surprise of many there. We can only speculate as to why Starcraft 2 is so fast. Perhaps it is to make the game more ‘exciting’ for e-sports? Maybe it is related to Dustin Browder who got much acclaim at designing Red Alert 2 to have fast gameplay compared to the slow as molasses Tiberian Sun. Either way, Starcraft 2 is MUCH MUCH faster than Starcraft 1. The game is very stressful as a result.
In the video for the Closed Video for Legacy of the Void (a fitting name to the end of the Starcraft 2 trilogy: a legacy of nothingness), the announcer speaks of ‘exciting ways to make the game even more fast paced for more micro opportunities’!
The comments are amazing. Let’s take a look:
The NUMBER ONE upvoted comment says:
I think Blizzard misses the point when intentionally making units or unit responses “more micro intensive”
Micro is going to happen regardless. Rather than build a fun game with potential for exploitation, they give us a game with a very high-end ceiling that requires an extreme amount of mechanics to be adept at. The result is that more casual gamers have scared away from the game.
SC:BW wasn’t designed to be more micro-intensive, it just worked out that way.
-SNIP-
For many hardcore SC2 players, the "metagame" for casual RTS players have remained a mystery like a laser pointer and the red dot is to a kitten. Call-To-Arms against the Casual Player Revolution
As Gamers Age, The Appeal of Competition Drops The Most "The data we’ve collected from over 140,000 gamers via the Gamer Motivation Profile allows us to see how gaming motivations vary by age."
"According to the ESA, the average gamer is now 35 years old. And that average will keep rising as the first gamer generation gets older."
Running real-time Q&A with 500+ random twitch users are not a good idea it's a mess.
Instead, do something similar to Creative Assembly (Craig Laycock) and focus more on youtube community interaction:
One thing I'm particularly passionate about is developing new formats for engaging with our fan base. One example is Rally Point, a Total War community web show I created, built entirely in-house with our own skills. Right now, Rally Point is pulling in up to 225k views an episode, and has achieved 3m views to date.
Working with a huge and diverse audience, I also aim to encourage community interaction with our passionate fans across all studio titles, while reporting activity directly back to those who will most benefit from it.
Craig Laycock, Global Lead Community Manager linkedin.com
For Relic CMs it's messy engaging a large fan base in real time as they can't provide good answers without consulting with the right people involved.
Finalist, MCV Awards 2014, "Community Engagement"
Finalist, MCV Awards 2015, "Community Team"
Finalist, MCV Awards 2016, "Community Team"
Craig Laycock has the right credentials to know what he's talking about. Relic can learn a lot from him.
In comparison LoL get 200-400K views from doing something similar to rally point. So CA is doing pretty good on youtube with a much smaller fan base than LoL.
For those that want to believe in the power of youtube just look at pewdiepie.
PewDiePie big fan of Alien Isolation with 13 gameplay walkthrough videos. 42 Million YouTube Subscribers. Over 7.088.146 likes on facebook. The 30 Most Influential People on the Internet. Making over $7 million every year. PewDiePie is the king of YouTube. http://time.com/3732203/the-30-most-influential-people-on-the-internet/
Really entertaining to watch with quality casting. Well done.
Personal, I know for a fact Relic is making two new AAA games, DoW3 + one FTP cross platform/mobile game using the unity engine. So this help explain why COH2 have not been supported as well it could have been.
Unfortunately, IMO the marketing team behind COH has not taken full advantage of these ESL tournaments to draw in new players. Either Relic has to continue making more money from current owners or expanding the player base.
Also for 3 years old game, players can legally buy cheap copies (secondary market) to the COH2 base game from resellers for 7-9$ using g2g shield for safer transactions. https://www.g2a.com/company-of-heroes-2-steam-cdkey-global.html
I hope the COH2 marketing team understand Steam discounts and Humble Bundle invite speculative purchases, where game keys are farmed by resellers with the intention of selling them later for a profit. There are plenty of resellers that make a living just farming keys and virtual assets. This is referred to as the secondary/grey market.
Strangely, SEGA/Relic is overreacting to War Spoils farming and not making enough from DLC commanders. This collective hurt everyone which don't farm. The potential primary player base+viewers for an eSport game is not going to be War Spoils farmers nor hardcore RTS players, but average RTS players that only play a couple of games per day at most. As the popular SC2 streamer Destiny has said;
it is undeniable that the more popular your game is and the more people you have playing it, the greater your viewership will be for your tournaments. This establishes a very important, often-ignored link between the professional and casual gaming scene: more casual gamers means a healthier professional scene.
What SEGA/Relic need to understand is that if the average players have to log in for many games each day. Then he often won't log in at all because playing a few games for War Spoils drops or higher ladder rank is negligible. That's why COH2 need a two reward system like WoT, CS GO or DOTA2. One built for the average player and a new Prestige Ranking system to reward hardcore RTS players with cosmetics on reset like DOTA2. http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Trophy
SEGA/Relic should be asking themselves, why are new players not joining this fun game? What can we do making this game more accessible to the mainstream market? How can we make more money from UI customization that doesn't affect actual gameplay? How do we smooth out the learning curve making the game easy to play, hard to master?
At very least they could have made COH1 base game free to play (or sold for 1$) for 3 months during ESL. Right now new players can get the humble bundle deal COH1+DoW1 for 1$: https://www.humblebundle.com/sega-strategy-bundle
A very nice humble bundle deal and charity incentive for new players but comes too late making any big buzz around COH eSport.
"Owned" means "Sold", right?
No. "Owned" means "owned". It includes games bought on Steam, bought in retail and then activated on Steam, bought in bundles, recieved through promotions or as a gift and so on. It also includes copies temporarily given away on "free weekends", so take care when coming to conclusions about sales or revenue.
By looking at the steamspy stats, very few buys COH2 at the full sale price. Only during marketing campaigns with 75% off etc. will new players join.
To be fair COH2 bad launch in 2013 is not all SEGAs fault. Lack of funding from THQ that was going bankrupt really messed up a lot of things for Relic.
From a quick google search...damn, $362.99 for the "complete" experience.
Imagine how Sonic feels experiencing the same IP abuse as COH2 for over 10 years.
Joke aside, this is not greed but stupidity and COH franchise Terminators which contradict what the new SEGA CEO are trying to accomplish for higher consumer trust. It's almost like this marketing 'team' are trying to sabotage community efforts to make this game become a top quality eSport brand. Personal, I would rather have EA DLC on steroids over these marketing clowns.
So frustrating to see that this marketing team doesn't know how to market this great game (or they just don't care).
COH is an underrated franchise and it's not hard selling many new digital copies and to monetize fan art / UI customization. As one old school Relic fan from 1999, I can guarantee the studio founder and old Relic boss Alex Garden would not tolerate these consistent marketing screw-ups. Get your shit together.
There is plenty of successful monetization schemes that could be adopted to make a fairly successful eSport game. There is also some good FTP/monetization designers in Relic that could help clean up this mess but it require higher ups that put them to work.
Stefan Haines worked on a new progression system+UI customization
Relic Game Designer, 2006 - 2015
So he quit or got fired?
- Designed and led the development of an unreleased game economy/progression revision
- Designed and led the development of the UI and gameplay for unreleased player content customization system prototype
-SNIP-
Now I am currently seeking a new experience in game design, with expertise in the following areas:
Design, implementation and evaluation of gameplay mechanics. Generation of game content that is compelling for players and financially successful.
Development and evaluation of game prototypes/concepts/features.
Game design and UI flow. Analysis and evaluation of player behaviors and trends.
Live operations and game balance.
Quote from Game Designer at Blackbird Interactive (former Relic)
Stefan and I worked together on several projects at Relic Entertainment. He was always friendly and easy to work with. We often relied on his deep knowledge of competitive gaming, combat systems, unit balance, and in-game economy. He contributed enormously to many of Relic's best-loved games. I would happily work with Stefan again.
So how do these marketing clowns respond? Just ignore Stefan Haines progression system and continue with a deeply flawed War spoils system. Oh yeah, and lets put executive Producer Greg Wilson on the plane talking about how cool War Spoils is going to be.
Denmark
SturmTigerCobra
DonnieChan
Inane EliteVideoGameMasturbater
SturmTigerCobra
Relic Entertainment
