Unfortunately, souls don't pay salaries nor keeps publishers happy. I'm fine with DLC as long as it remains to be skins, sp/PvE/coop commanders and whatever affects multiplayer should be proper faction expansions only.
So co-op commanders are essential "pay to help", not as bad as "pay to win/grind to win" sentiments.
See below references and comments/blog by Ramin Shokrizade (top FTP game economist) talking about "collaborative monetization/economy" in Warframe and pro-consumer monetization.
Ramin Shokrizade
3 Jan 2018 at 5:10 pm PST
The original Polygon article is a long read and really doesn’t talk about the game economy at all. I was a bit disappointed. The main take aways, which are repeated over and over, are that they listen to their player community and that they don’t consider the advantage you can buy as pay to win because the focus of the game is co-op not pvp. This they try to frame it as “pay to help”. The money you spend doesn’t help others at all directly but by spending on yourself you will eventually help others more. Sort of a “trickle down theory”. It’s a bit of a reach. I’m glad they’ve kept the gambling mechanics to a minimum. None of this stuff is “economy” though. When I hear the phrase “fair economy”, I think player trade. This is in the game but not explained at all other than it sounds like something similar to the Diablo 3 RMAH which was a commercial failure.
*SNIP*
It sounds like they were trying to avoid the problems I predicted with the Diablo 3 RMAH in my prediction paper I wrote 6 months before it was launched:
Which is good since Blizzard didn't react to this information until almost two years later when they were forced to by tanking sales. The solution used in Warframe is pretty decent, but seems to add a lot of complexity. That complexity seems to me would favor long term players over new players, a situation mirroring the primary obstacles restricting growth in EVE Online.
From Warframe/Digital Extremes, Sega Europe hired Alfonso Cubias JR and Senior Marketing Manager since 2016 https://www.linkedin.com/in/alfonsocubiasjr/ Video with Alfonso Cubias, 2013 (intro 1:53)
CoH2 PvP Commanders Relic chasing the Golden Goose 2013-2016 RIP;
For Relic, the important issue here is the lack of transparency and confused new players that don't understand/accept the COH2 business model.
28:00+ listen to what AngryJoe as a reviewer had to say about the ingame shop.
Currently, AngryJoe review has 370.575 youtube views. IMO, AngryJoe review was fair and balanced
If Relic went FTP with the base game (Soviet and Ostheer) then "maybe" they could get away with pay to win/grind to win sentiments. Personally, I don't think multiplayer is pay to win anymore but Relic should try to see where the confusion comes from new players.
CoH2 multiplayer is already pretty complex for new players so PvP progression with commanders is mostly flawed/redundant game design. Not only do new players have to overcome the "skill gap" they also have to deal with PvP progression for many hours that is neither fun or engaging.
CoH pro-consumer monetization
For future games/new game modes (not necessarily CoH3), if Relic wants to continue making money from PvP commanders/progression they should learn the Wargaming business models which according to Ramin Shokrizade are outperforming the MOBA business model.
Ramin Shokrizade is working on some new business models that are still NDA/proprietary. But the Wargaming business model from WoT is mostly public for everyone to learn.
Microsoft investigated/vetted Ramin Shokrizade for a year before they determined he was the top pro-consumer advocate and gaming economist within the western FTP business. So before nit-picking Ramin at very least know he is on our side as consumers.
Western FTP publisher, if they want to, can still make good money from pro-consumer business models which is sustainable growth. They really have no good excuse anymore for not doing this.
Monetization and Economy Designer
Microsoft
Dates Employed Sep 2012 – Aug 2013 Employment Duration 1 yr
LocationRedmond, CA
I was the first game economist utilized by Microsoft, to guide them through the design of their first internally developed free to play game, Project Spark. I worked with the lead game designers to modify the core game design to optimize commercial success inside a Free to Play business environment. Converting what was essentially a development engine, into a game, presented unique challenges. A key component was to create reward mechanisms for player retention.
Applied Game Economist and Neuroeconomist
Company NameIndependent Researcher
Dates EmployedJun 2005 – Present Employment Duration12 yrs 9 mos
While I have been on the cutting edge of MMOG monetization for the last 16 years, it has only been since 2005 that I dedicated myself totally to the design of advanced virtual economic and monetization systems. I have written over 100 papers on the subject, some proprietary. I am interviewed regularly in the global press, and have advised the regulators of over 70 advanced nations.
As the first game economist available to the Western game development industry, I was the first to be employed to companies such as Microsoft, Wargaming, Nickelodeon, Take 2 Interactive, and many others. Since my skill sets had never been deployed prior to my arrival, it took some time to explain to companies what I do and how I can assist them. That has not changed significantly with the companies I have not yet assisted. My techniques are still unique in the industry since I invented them and only publish the bottom 25% of what I know.
Now that I have developed the functional framework for game neuroeconomics, going well beyond what is possible with game economics, the process of explaining how I can multiply complex product revenues starts over. I am happy to explain what I do under NDA with serious candidate studios and companies. I've worked very hard to help our industry on many levels and with even minor vetting (as in, at least a Google search...) you will see I am a true industry unicorn who has already value-added in the range of 8 digits USD per year on two of my previous shipped products.
I am extremely challenge-seeking, so if you have a very complex/novel project, you will surely get my attention. I also enjoy volunteering my services to media, educational institutions, and sovereign entities.
Game Economist
Company NameWargaming America
Dates EmployedAug 2013 – Jun 2015 Employment Duration1 yr 11 mos
LocationAustin, Texas Area
I joined a very carefully assembled team of gaming quantitative and social scientists in a new studio in the Austin area. We provide support and guidance for a total of 16 studios world-wide. I was the only game economist among our 3000+ employees, and acted mostly autonomously as my own department in the company.
Developer response:
r_fralex [developer] Posted: 13 Feb @ 9:24pm
Hi,
On behalf of the COH Team, we sincerely apologize for the confusion. The emailing that went out a day ago indeed listed the incorrect product (as opposed to a bunch of other MWNL pages / assets / communications, which all had it right). As yesterday was a bank holiday in British Columbia, where Relic is, we caught the error a bit too late. The intent was never to mislead anyone with false advertising. Please reach out to SEGA's Customer Support (https://support.sega.co.uk), who is already working on ways to make it right by those who bought COH2 thinking they would get all the expansions as well.
Meanwhile, we have been working with SEGA to ensure that all the incriminated visuals have been fixed. It should be all good now. But in case you spot anything we might have missed, please let us know at info@relic.com
PyroBlade_Knight
Posted: 12 Feb @ 11:38pm
Just bought this game again for the Make War Not Love 5 event which claims that the CoH 2: Platinum Edition, which supposedly comes with all the DLC's along with another copy included for a friend, would be on sale. It was not, and all it ended up being was the regular game. The email showed a picture and the title of it as being CoH 2: Platinum Edition and I'll update this review once this is cleared up.
Dreadnaught396 44 minutes ago
Yeah keep us posted..I just got that as well for a friend and I'm seeing the Platinum Edition picture too. Ended up being just the base game.
New VP of production and development at Sega
Sega Europe has hired Alex Peters as VP of production and development services at their head office in Brentford, UK.
With an industry career stretching 22 years, Peters has held top positions at Bullfrog, EA, DICE, Relic Entertainment and, most recently, VP of production at Activision US.
Peters' new role at Sega Europe will see him leading the business' production, QA, localisation, program office and customer service teams. His role will also see him take responsibility for delivering titles from external studios.
He will also play an active role in Sega Europe's growth plans as the business strives to find the best studios and engaging new IP to work with.
"Alex's appointment is of significant importance for Sega Europe, as we look to build upon our recent successes. We have spent a long time looking to bring in someone with the requisite experience, vision and character to fill this role and in Alex, we've got all those bases covered." said Martin Servanté, senior VP of strategy and corporate development for Sega Europe.
"We're confident that he will help us move the business forward and that his experience and influence will ultimately benefit the end users of Sega products all over the world."
Relic Entertainment is "open" to the idea of Company of Heroes on a console.
General manager Alex Peters said if the studio can find a way to bring the series outside of PC it will "do it".
"RTSs (real-time strategy) have struggled to find their place on console. If we can figure out, and the timing's right, how to deliver a great experience - and I think it would be a different experience - we'll do it," he told Digital Spy.
"But, again, it has to be that we'll feel confident that we deliver that kind of experience people expect from Relic."
Announced earlier this month, Company of Heroes 2 is the sequel to one of the most critically-acclaimed strategy titles of all time.
Alex Peters, formerly the studio head and director of production and operations at Relic Entertainment, has joined the team at Activision as the vice president of production.
--------------- Relic Has the Scale and Support From Sega To Think About a Console Return Interview with Relic studio head/GM, Justin Dowdeswell - April 12, 2017
https://www.dualshockers.com/relic-scale-and-support-from-sega-to-think-about-console-return/
As you may know, Relic has dabbed in console development before, for example, with Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine. But its been some time for the developer since it dabbled beyond the PC space, and according to Dowdeswell Relic is thinking about how can it craft an experience that makes sense on consoles.
Dowdeswell continues:
“Our ambition is to be a leading studio in this genre, and part of that will mean that we are branching out in the future. Would [console] fit with our existing franchises? I don’t know, referring to the gameplay side of it, but at the very high level our goal of reaching as many gamers as possible, allowing them to have as much fun as possible, we have to be thinking about other platforms.”
Dowdeswell goes on to say that the team not only has the scale within to expand to consoles but that it also has the support from Sega. But don’t just take my word on it, you can check out the quote for yourself below:
“We have the scale within Relic and we have the support from Sega to be thinking [expanding to consoles] about that.”
Company of Heroes dev reckons it's solved the RTS on console problem
But it's keeping its "plausible solution" secret - for now. - 02/06/2014
"There's some stuff that's been back burnered for years because we wanted to see how technology, the market, control and touch emerged. Hopefully we will be positioned to adapt to some of that."
*SNIP*
"The one thing we would love is to get the Relic experience on a console," Duffy enthused. "They can do great graphics and great sound. The things I love about Company of Heroes on the presentation side would translate, no problem. But the tactical squad control and cover, those would be harder to mechanically translate to a control pad.
"It's exciting. We've got an idea."
Talk of RTS on console came up as part of a discussion about the RTS genre in general, and whether there was still a potential for innovation when the core mechanics of RTS have remained the same for years.
"I think so," Duffy countered. It's just that the typical RTS audience have an... interesting relationship with change.
"You have a relatively, traditionally conservative audience of players who play strategy games," Duffy said.
"So if you want to innovate you have to do it with a plan and in steps. You have to introduce them bit by bit to something you want to ultimately get to. There's still lots of room to innovate. You just have to ease your community into it. And ease your developers. We're kind of old school ourselves."
Core responsibilities:
- team management (community managers, communications coordinators)
- strategic planning (media relations, public relations, brand/marketing)
- communications coaching (media training, interview prep, internal communications)
- stakeholder management (studio, development, and marketing team leads, licensors, etc.)
But where the hell is the studio leaders? Sitting in a bunker somewhere?
This DoW3 mess ain't over until Relic get some new leaders.
Until then, I sincerely hope MS/Sega will do some more Relic oversight or these leaders are going to fuck up again.
It seems to me that New Relic is willing to - or perhaps feel they downright need to - radically pursue broader customer appeal, rather than improve on what already works.
IMHO, I think a big difference now is the "little guys" are no longer "Yes men" that blindly follow some arrogant leader that thinks he knows best. They want to become more like Amplitude with their games2gether model. https://www.games2gether.com/
I get the impression, they have either Sega or MS (maybe both) on their side so they will be fine.
The glassdoor "review" was part of this as "open dev letter to Sega/MS". Yes, this is speculation, but it sorta makes sense now.
This change (ideally supported by Sega/MS) will backfire more on failing leadership which atm stand pretty humiliated (read defeated).
It's unfortunate some devs will lose their job because of this, but let's face it DoW3 was financially deadweight and not going to save Relic.
Good luck to the Relic teams implementing the Amplitude business model (games2gether)? and/or expanding on UGC post-launch.
Very interesting and likely the best move Relic can do right now to regain credibility and keep fans from revolting in the future. This potentially means the CoH franchise and AoE4 will (over time) become part of https://www.games2gether.com/
Microsoft already has a modding community working on AoE DE's, https://www.forgottenempires.net/
During AoE Gamescom 2017, MS gave a lot of credit to modders and fans.
Hey @Amplitude! Thanks for letting us borrow @jbuiss0n. Don't let the poutine fool you -- he's been hard at work, we promise!
New Content (UGC)
Although we plan to continue releasing new in-game content in future updates, we will now be leveraging UGC such as vehicle skins and maps to help offer new gameplay experiences to the community. We hope that advances to COH2’s modding tools will also take place in the coming months, allowing additional forms of content to be created by the community as well - however this is still to be confirmed.
show previous quotes
Ben, what are you going to do regain credibility? I'm afraid, silence won't help with that.
We have two projects in progress right now with teams who are really determined to prove our way forward with new ways of working. The plan is to show you that progress as those games progress, rather than tell you what it's going to be like today. Actions louder than words, and all that.
@Amoc said:
show previous quotes
This might be an unfair question (in which case I'm sorry) but I'm wondering if the Relic team has an assessment of primarily what went wrong with DoW III? I don't ask that as a blame game, but more generally where you think the biggest disconnects were between what fans wanted, and the experience that was delivered?
That's not an unfair question. It's a bit trickier to answer but that's okay. The root of the disconnect that we've focused on is iteration without player feedback. One of the biggest risks in making games is that you don’t fully see how a title will really play and feel until you’ve hit a point where it’s difficult to switch gears. From where we're sitting, bringing that early and ongoing player validation into our process is a big priority so well-intentioned decisions don't go long without feedback.
@PhilthyPhilPhD said:
@r_benb
Was the player retention (or lack thereof) that killed DoW3 or that not enough people bought it? Or both? Would appreciate any insight regarding any of the above questions. Thanks for trying and best of luck in the future with the next titles. I'm rooting for you guys to make your next game a success.
We were going to follow a similar model to our past releases but I can't get into the details.
Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely.
@Andtaxes said:
@r_benb
Is there a chance of a post-mortem as far as events go? Not to fling mud but as a general education sort of thing. I find it really fascinating how things work behind the scenes and some of the more dull, practical measures that have to be put into place influence larger design choices down the road.
Maybe...sort of? We're pouring all of our lessons learned into our other projects knowing that making them great is our best way forward. We'd love to share more on how that change is coming to life in the studio when we're able to talk more openly about those projects.
Thank you, Sega for the transparency.
Lessons learned? Stop hiring bad leaders, please!.
DoW3 Executive Producer (Stephen MacDonald);
Unfortunately, the DoW3 team reaps what they sow with the arrogant leadership that had no foresight (no visionary) and moral superiority that stink to high heaven (holier than thou attitude);
I'm not blaming the "little guys" which did fairly well.
Although Relic offered him excellent opportunities, the game Stephen was working on was based on war, and he didn’t feel it was a good fit for him and his family. Instead, he wanted to create high-quality games for kids and parents. “We want to be the Pixar of games,” he says. “Pixar makes movies that everyone can enjoy – they’re targeted at kids, but you don’t have to be a kid to enjoy the film. That’s what Heartsy is all about. It’s going to be targeting that audience, with that kind of appeal.”
“Right now my life is pretty crazy,” he adds. “I’m living out in the woods in Guysborough, prototyping a game that I know will hit millions of people.
What a clown show "New Relic" has become. I'm sorry Relic, but if you guys want to survive, it's time to wake up.
To quote myself;
Dow3 backslash & Abandon ship
The dow3 backslash is a good example where fans feel they were ignored or belittle fan criticism since the first screenshots were released. Obvious the art style was not aligned with what they saw in the Dawn of War III – Announcement Trailer made by Axis Animation which was well received by fans.
The dow3 executive producer (Stephen MacDonald, as seen in vid) + brand manager (Danielle Robinson, involved since 2014) abandons ship well before launch and are not even in the end credits;
From LinkedIn;
Spear-headed the development of the global strategy and franchise roadmap for Dawn of War, revitalized branding efforts and created overall marketing materials. Responsible for increasing brand awareness, analysing market and consumer trends and defining positioning and messaging to reassert AAA position after 5yr hiatus.
After abruptly "leaving" Relic, Stephen MacDonald goes to make mobile game studio "Heartsy Studios" which also fail miserably. It took a year to find a replacement so DoW3 launch without the new production leader which are David Littman. Spotlight on Heartsy Studios https://www.novascotiabusiness.com/articles/spotlight-heartsy-studios
Although Relic offered him excellent opportunities, the game Stephen was working on was based on war, and he didn’t feel it was a good fit for him and his family. Instead, he wanted to create high-quality games for kids and parents. “We want to be the Pixar of games,” he says. “Pixar makes movies that everyone can enjoy – they’re targeted at kids, but you don’t have to be a kid to enjoy the film. That’s what Heartsy is all about. It’s going to be targeting that audience, with that kind of appeal.”
Linkedin;
The founder and CEO for Heartsy Studios. Heartsy was started to make the best kids games in the world with a focus on quality, fun (obviously) and heart! No murder simulators for us!
4.409 views on youtube.
4.409 (now 4.425) views are not millions, lol
“Right now my life is pretty crazy,” he adds. “I’m living out in the woods in Guysborough, prototyping a game that I know will hit millions of people.
A recent survey by Software Advice claims that nearly fifty per cent of job seekers in the U.S. read Glassdoor reviews.
Update to Review (Russian translator needed);
According to a Russian news source(https://game2day.org/), Relic GM (somewhat equal to studio CEO) has now confirmed the tough situation to reporters asking questions.
Its a tiny article so here's the copy and paste translated: According to the resource glassdoor, specializing in insider information, the Canadian developer of Relic Entertainment has faced serious problems and the existence of the company is in question. If you believe an anonymous source from the staff of developers, Relic Entertainment is experiencing serious problems with its management, which can not cope with the work in the market of RTS and its community.
Inexperienced management of the studio led to huge losses and can generally lead to the closure of the developer. Indirectly, this confirms the work with new titles Dawn of War III and Age of Empires 4. The microclimate inside Relic Entertainment is at a low level. Ordinary developers, seeing that any of their initiatives are cutting at the root, are on the verge of a strike. The company's toxic atmosphere led to a serious staff turnover, which is why the fate of Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War and Company of Heroes is in question.
CEO Justin Daudswell in a conversation with reporters confirmed the difficult situation that Relic Entertainment is experiencing now.
If you're on chrome, theres a translate button on the very right of the URL bar to translate the entire page, it only shows up on pages with a large amount of text in another language.
IMHO, if Relic doesn't get some new leadership a CA merger is likely the best option.
Anyway, best of luck to those "little guys" involved.
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Relic Entertainment
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