Why don't the plaintiffs cut the crap and assertively tell what is their issue with CAS truly is.
Is it the fuel to munitions conversion? You remove this feature, you effectively bury this doctrine, as it is all about spamming air strikes. Do you realize how expensive they are? this doctrine cannot be viable without the fuel to munitions conversion. You can't spam the loitering anti tank strafe from lighting war or blitzkrieg, you will be able too use a couple of times, same goes for the loitering pin plane.
Is it the strafes? Their effectiveness is heavily map dependant and situational.
Is it the planes crashing? Which by the way is not the doctrines fault. All planes behave this way and it's pure RNG, so it's fair, can crash on anyone. If you have an issue with this go complain on this thread.
I read "CAS OP in 3v3 and up" being thrown out a lot on this thread. Let's address the huge elephant in the room. Well if the ones having a beef with CAS won't tell what their actual issue is, we won't move forward and will just keep going on circles. I will tell what it is. Fairly easy to deduce by reading between the lines.
Simply put: You have issues dealing with CAS. As in you're inexperienced and don't know how to respond to this tactic. It's not a balance issue. This should be moved to the strategy section. And honestly most of those throwing the "CAS OP" accusations have a very average ranking and skill and some have admitted to having poor micro...
I've never seen top 50 teams struggle against multiple CAS. I have played against Top 50 teams using CAS, it's strong but I've never blamed the loss on CAS being OP, after dozens of games against it you start getting used to and intuitively adapt, pick up some good habits.
Last time I tried with my buddies to pull out the goofy strat of 3 CAS players and 1 OKW spec ops for flares. Worked on the newbies but against good teams like Go Hard clan, OKW clan, TTT clan (Dirk Deagler's team) etc.. The multiple CAS strat did not work at all, we got wrecked mid game as it leaves you exposed to early armour rushes and they constantly killed our munitions cashes instead of facing the shreck blobs and lmg blops head on early game. Midgame, once they had katyushas and a decent medium tank force they started thinning out our blobs. 10 cps is a long way to go as CAS is a late game doctrine. And top teams know this and exploit this weakness ruthlessly.
Actually, even trying to kill enemy katyusha trucks or priests with the JU-87 anti-tank strafe against a good team is hard to pull off, as they reposition their mobile arty often, keep tabs on it and can often dodge the strafes. The strafe is not a guaranteed success in these match-ups.
4v4 maps tend do be large enough to give you a decent reaction time window. It's all about game sense and situational awareness, if you're in the edges, well take into consideration that the strafes will be much more accurate. I Won't speak about 2v2 as I rarely play that mode, maybe it is too strong on there.
Ultimately this is a skill issue you people are having. I never see the ladder kings whining in the forums. Ever seen QQ post by Jesulin, OMG Pop, Giap, Go hard clan, SOE Clan or OKW clan whining about something being OP? No they suck it up and improve, and so should you.
Believing that CAS is a broken commander is a fallacy, just forum warriors that had a couple of loses against CAS and from their individual viewpoint persuaded themselves the doctrine is bat-shit OP when maybe they screwed up, got outplayed or RNG screwed em. In a game where RNG is so influential on the outcome of a match. You need to play at least 50 games to identify a recurrent problematic pattern that is credible, as after 50 games you should have adapted and figured out a counter. I doubt any of the plaitiffs have played 50 team games since the patch came out.
CAS is a strong, viable commander, it's not OP nor broken. PTRS seem to be a problematic issue on the other hand, see the difference.
cool essay pop.
i am in multiple top 50 AT rank in 3v3+. i struggle with CAS. so do my teammates. not saying we lose shits to CAS commanders, but the shear effort you put in to 'counter' such noobish strategy makes me bored and frustrated. i rather fight tiger or ele. this is my personal opinion of course and i will dress it up as such, unlike you, who dresses up one's opinion like a fact.
beat ttt multiple of times, got beaten by them multiple times. okw clan? do they even have good players? because any okw clan we've met, we've never had a good game.
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Threads about CAS has been posted at least 2 times before on this forum. Please stop. They wont do anything about it.
Just close this thread already
yep. which means ppl are keep having problems with this. it not like ppl started complaining about this as soon as it came out. like your little ober thread. |
You want Ostheer cheese? Its Luft supply in 4's dropping fuel on maps like lienne forest.
That is cheesy but CAS? Only reason i bring up soviet cheese is they just so happen to have more
of it to choose from.
Also please point out were i spread 'non facts' All the counter's listed are effective vs a CAS user.
Very effective in fact.
"Its dodge-able if you want to complain about the Stuka pin its the loitering one that can't miss."
i want to see a replay where you or your enemy constantly and reliably dodge the AI strafe. people i play with i never missed them and i only dodged twice, both due to the user being a total idiot. but anyway, my problem with you is mainly your fancy "L2P" replies. |
Well if 'Playing well' Is the counter, Then its good balance, Its nether too easy to pull off nor too easy to counter. Were as doing FHQ is the opposite problem very easy to pull off and very difficult to stop without good coordinated play from 4 players.
Btw my allied ranking is higher then my axis ranking currently and i play all 4 on a regular basis.
So i feel like calling me factionally partisan is a little unfair.
And B-4 potentially 1 shotting a JT was bullshit.
That kind of damage made CAS necessary. Allies have plenty of late game options
With their doctrines, I personally like medium swarms, But have used IS-2 and ISU to great effect as well.
So you don't have a problem with it?
The most legitimate argument ive seen is 'It comes too fast from the edge of the map'
So if anything were to be done id say add 1s to the flight time so it gives the allied player more time to move.
it is basically saying L2P. adds nothing 'cept yours had a facade of "helpful" tips.
i played sov the most, ost second, usf third etc. but my favourite list goes usf, ost, sov. you can still have bias even when playing all factions. the fact that when we are talking about alleged ostheer cheeseness, and you keep swinging back to sov's cheeseness only bolster my view.
i have problem with CAS but i am not here to shove my opinion dick into ppl's mouths. there are many threads like this on the official forum and quite a few here. i am hoping relic sees it and analyse the situation themselves. if nothing happens, nothing happens. if CAS changes, i will see if it is for the better. etc etc.
i just have problem with ppl spreading non-facts. |
Well if it works every game then what is the problem?
And i think it is safe to assume that the CAS player will blob to some extent.
problem is that you are basically telling people that counter to CAS commander is playing well. and selling it like it is CAS specific counterplay while it is just pure logical play in almost every single game.
So by adjusted you mean nerfed? Not trying to be a asshole just want some clarification on this,
How would you 'adjust' it?
As for it being cheesy, You mean things like FHQ in 4's and Quadra industry?
Each side has its cheese for 4's and most of them are equally as bullshit.
Remember that CAS was a product of seeing B-4 Spam every game.
when did i say "adjusted"? i am not the OP.
why are you being so 'factionally' partisan btw? yes, FHQ and quadra industry is cheese like many other commanders. so what? you are saying because there are shits on both sides, it should be a wash? there are a lot of cheese and we should get to all of them in time.
"Remember that CAS was a product of seeing B-4 Spam every game."so it is all allies fault i see. well, b4 is product of axis late game being totally ridiculous in 3v3+. and it goes on and on. |
1. If you loose your Kat/priest/ISU/IS2 due to CAS its your fault. Dodge it.
2. Dodge it. they both drop smoke and are only that fast when on the edges of the map. you can dodge .5 sec grenades but you can't dodge a 1.5-2s plane skillshot? That drops red smoke.
with your infantry yelling AIRSTRIKE as well.
3. Yep exactly why you should be using it a lot vs CAS players.
4. If he has a panther you don't have to worry about the strikes as much as hes wasted a ton of fuel for that panther.
5. Allied Quad sucks at shooting this thing down and it will get its first pass off and it won't miss.
The CAS one costs half but can miss. The loitering is secondary.
6. At the end of the day. Dodge it.
If you want to push for stronger Allied AA that's one thing (Something that i agree with)
But don't be all like "Oh its uncountable"
1. ok. not my point. those units are always effective.
2. yep. dodging grenade and the much larger aoe airstrike is the same. and i do dodge most of the time. that is not my problem.
3. assuming all cas players are blobbing noobs?
4. good thing it is in team game where CAS is a problem.
5. thus i said "2/3"
6. can you quote me in this thread when i said CAS commander were uncounterable?
all the supposed counterplay you mentions is either
a. obvious suggestion that works in every game
b. assuming ostheer player is blobbing noob.
i dont think it is particularly OP. it is just very cheesy and not fun to play against/with.
...USF halftrack and setting it up in AA mode will address most of your gripes.
...
is this empirical? from my vast experience and many tests i have done, USF AAHT almost never shot the single pass before it dropped the payload. because unless called in specifically to take a long way, the plane will either shoot from outside of the map or as in enters the map. and only times USF AAHT was actually able to shoot down the planes before the payloads were finished was during tests, when i had world vision toggled on in Janne252's cheatmod. you actually need vision to take advantage of the AAHT's superior range. |
There is so much lolz in this thread, Why are we discussing this doctrine AGAIN.
This is like the 4th time in the last month but lets break it down again...
maybe because sane ppl and non pro axis circle jerkers are seeing the cheeseness of this commander in 2v2+?
- CAS consists of Fuel to muni, Recon, AT strafe, AI strafe, Stuka dive bomb.
- All the strikes are skillshots.
lol
- The one using CAS will have not many tanks and in many cases no tanks.
entirely ostheer player's fault. its his decision to transfer resources. its not like sov industry.
- Ostheer is extremely vulnerable to things like kat trucks and ISU when using CAS.
also when not using CAS
- You don't counter it by shooting down the planes you counter it by dodging the skillshots.
yep. AI strafe that you have 1 sec to dodge and AT strafe that you have 2-4 sec to dodge. such skillshot, click and click. much wow.
- Demo's rape CAS blobs super hard. Most noobs don't spread there blob apart when using CAS.
demo rape everything and if CAS user blobs and lose a lot to a demo? entirely his fault.
- If Nerfed Luft supply and Ostruppen will take its place and both are just as effective.
cool hypothesis, no basis.
- 2 to 3 mediums crushing can really ruin his day.
one p4 and pak or one panther then day not ruined. thank the gods.
Its dodge-able if you want to complain about the Stuka pin its the loitering one that can't miss.
'cept it is much bigger resource hog and having dedicated AA unit will make ostheer player lose 2/3 of the investment almost always.
Don't build ML-20 and B4 when you see him have a huge lmg/shreck blob too early. if you do its your own fault.
thx captain obvious for spelling it out and reading it to us. not the point but still appreciate every help i can get.
While annoying CAS alone isn't going to win them the game When the IS2's and ISU's come rolling out they will have a very hard time stopping them without heavy armor. In 4's 2x CAS leaves you vulnerable in the sense that you don't have tank numbers.
in 4s, axis lose, entirely their fault. no real discussion. commander pick for both axis factions are not as important as commander picks for allies. not even close.
If you got hit at your base sector with all your infantry there you got outplayed.
Its not different then shooting kats at base sector or priests.
not the same, but true
This is the strength of it right here, the planes are secondary. If CAS got nerfed Ostruppen doct can do it almost as well.
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Trivial.
In fact, you are playing the same game, but you eat a BIG PEPPERONI instead of your habitual "huge meat pizza".
for me, it is like going into pizzaria and the owner shoves a dough with no tomato sauce and cheese at me. and ppl like you are telling me "you only hate it because it doesnt have tomato sauce and cheese like 99.9% of the pizza types.", well sue me. |
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anti infantry strafe, if done right will AOE suppress surrounding units as far as 25m away. it's not a matter of blobbing or not.
anti tank strafe takes minimum of 4 seconds to about 6 seconds for its payload to hit. with tank's accelerations in mind, you have about 3-4 seconds to move your tank or anything like t34/76 will die most of the time. the trick is to move when they are reconing.
dive bomb completely nullifies ml20 and b4. which is kinda lame.
to not have any tanks literally means you have been spamming air strikes like motherf-er. its not hard to balance between these cheese strikes and getting tanks.
i think this commander's cheeseness start from 2v2, but it is defintely cheese in 3v3+ |
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all this drama just because of 50 amrour nerf and jackson's 5% increased potency against heavy+ tanks. wow. |
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