Barrage is a timed ability, meaning, you have time to notice the barrage being fired at you and for the next 15 seconds or so, you can walk any armored vehicle right up to it before it has switched back to AT. Let alone any infantry you have around that charges at it will most likely break animation and the AT gun backs off.
I don't see a balance issue with it. German AT is far superior and honestly to me, if your opponent can creep a ZiS onto the front lines and barrage your units without you harrassing and/or killing it, it sounds like you have the problem, not us.
The barrage range is shorter I believe then it's actually AP rounds range. Not sure how it's that uneven at all.
tl;dr l2flank.
no an no, in fact often you find barrage being fired at you from fog of war |
But why is the current balance wrong? Like i said, 2 riflegrenades cost the same, you will always have 2 grens around, and they work better in the sense that is is instant, while if ZIS-3 miss the first shot, you can just easily reposition.
The t-34/76 is still good vs infantry, P IV vs tanks. T-34/76 loses to P IV practically every single engagement still. And thats good.
Like i'm not sure why it should be removed if rifle grenades stay in the game. Oorah + molotov can also do practically the same for even cheaper... Not the same, but almost...
It's situational, but often your grens cant get to it because they get suppressed by a maxim for example, while the zis barrages support weapons and fights off scout cars and tanks. So the barrage is giving it a one unit army role.
As for the abilities you list above, they all should have a specific purpose otherwise they would introduces problems in game play.
You know what is also ridiciluos? Pak fires 50% faster, and has target weakpoint. If it didint exist it would be so much better. Infact , remove at guns from the game.
That's the wrong way to look at things, one thing is bad doesn't make another bad thing good. |
ok, for me it's not bad game design. And the soviet mortar in my experience is not useless. It's just that its much worse than the german mortar. But its still OK. it can still kill stuff. Just not as effectivelly as the german one. The heavy mortar however is too inaccurate.
Abdul , you don't like it, too bad for you, i think that the zis having a barrage ability while pak 40 doesn't is a great design feature. It's assymetrical.
Wasn't that the idea behind the t34 being good against infantry and the panzer4 being good against tanks. At the time the t34 did only 80 damage and had like 75 penetration and ultimately was changed to where its very close to the panzer 4.
So asymmetrical doesn't always work. Plus there is an easier solution, make the zis a little cheaper to compensate for its lower performance without the need for barrage for example. There is some asymmetrical design for you quality vs quantity. |
While I do find the barrage useful enough, I'd take the extra AT performance of the pak any day of the week over it. The biggest benefit of the barrage on ZiS is that you don't have to touch the crappy soviet mortars if you're willing to sink lots of munitions into barrage.
Sadly that is true, its called bad game design where an important unit like mortar is practically useless (especially heavy mortar after patch). |
ok. So let me tell you.
PaK 40 fires 50% faster, has more penetration and if target weak point wasn't bugged, would be absolutely BEAST againts tanks. It's also 60 munitions. 2 riflegrenades cost the same and 2 grens are much more versatile than 1 zis gun. 2 riflegrenades will not only force a support weapon to retreat, but will often WIPE the entire team outright. So why can't soviets have something similar?
Their units are supposed to be more versatile because they can only have 1 out of two tier options.
Get it? That said, if you want to make a zis-3 a more effective version of a pak, please do so,relic said that soviet tier options are supposed to be more effective than german ones because you can only have 1 out of two and germans will always have the counter available to them, while soviets need to rely on doctrines more often than not.
I would love to have an at gun that can kill ostheer tanks reliably, you know, kind of like the pak 40. That would be so fun. ZIS-3 spam into kv-8 spam. So amazing strategy . Just 10/10. I guess you would like it, since that is apparently what you want it to be.
I really like the assymetrical design of this game. Please keep this relic.
Ok, what I get from this rambling is that you dont know, lol.
On a serious note, when designers make a unit/feature they usually try to implement it with a specific role/purpose in mind. This helps insure the unit/ability is meaningful and balanced.
For the zis I dont see what is the role of barrage except making it a one unit army in some situations. If you need barrage you should use mortar. Now since soviet mortar is next to trash that doesn't make zis barrage a balanced ability. Also because Zis is weaker than pak against armor also doesn't make barrage a balanced ability.
It's just bad game design to say zis has barrage because soviet mortar is trash or pak is much stronger against tanks. Maybe Zis should be a little cheaper to compensate for its lower performance against tanks for example.
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2 of them are available from the start and depending on how aggressive the players the guards may pop up before the Sc even arrive.
No they are not, because no one researches the at grenade or gets a zis first. If they do that they handicap their anti infantry capacity. Where as a German player can get ac221/222 if the option was available to him and do very well against infantry, support weapons, and light vehicles. |
So you want the pak to be superior in every single way ? Relic stated that soviet tier options are supposed to be more effective because you can only get 1 out of two....
I don't understand, why do you guys want zis to be inferior version of PaK in every single atspect? It allready is, Pak has 50% more dps than a goddam SU-85, zis-3 AT is like nothing compared to PaK.
Guess people really hate combined arms these days, all they want is conscript spam vs grenspam. Dear god if a support unit is more effective than an infantry squad...
What I want is for someone who understands the game and knows what he is talking about to help me understand how barrage is a balanced feature. What are the scenarios that make it a fair feature, because as I see it now this feature is making the zis more like a one man army in the face of many different units.
And the guess work is exactly what I am not interested in. |
yes it does, it's an artirelly piece. Does a mortar really need barrage? It costs 60 munitions. 2 riflegrenades do pretty much the same vs a maxim.
Pak has 50% faster rate of fire, and target weak point.
A mortar doesn't go right in front of an mg without getting suppressed and fires a devastating barrage to force the unit to retreat or get killed.
Burts is right, the ZiS-3 field gun was dual purpose. It could function as light artillery by lobbing HE shells at an upward angle, or as anti-tank by firing AP shells at a more directly. Be happy 'barrage' is an ability and not a fire-mode. Could you imagine? 
Historical accuracy doesn't have to dictate balance in the game. In fact just recently while discussing wf, the developers stressed this point. |
If they where that powerful abdul they would be spammed even know.
They are very powerful, and the reason you dont see them spammed as much as before is because they require time to obtain, by which point the soviets have some decent counters like zis, at grenades, and guards. |
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I keep seeing the Zis being sent in front of an mg42 or mortar squad and start firing its barrage forcing that unit to retreat. The way its being used like that reminds me of the maxim at the beginning of the game.
Back then you could send it into the fog of war, find a deployed mg42 and manage to suppress it first. That was bad game play and I kind of see a similar thing happening with the Zis where it's being sent solo to take down a deployed support unit.
This makes me wonder what was the developers' original purpose for the barrage ability? Do they consider what I describe above proper and balanced role for this ability? |
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Abdul
Relic Entertainment
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