Profile of AshFall

This is definitely a problem, it should not be possible for any faction to obliterate enemy bases with a click.

I have yet to see any constructive suggestions as to changes though, what to do about it?

Both the Walking Stuka and the Katyusha (in its current form) have large issues.

The Walking stuka: Very long cooldown. Precise and easily defined strike area in a long line. "walking" barrage.

Thoughts: The Stukas characteristics are both an asset and a hindrance. The narrow line strike area allows for precision bombing, but also gives clear indication as to direction and danger zone to the enemy. Unless many enemy units are set up perfectly in a line there is little chance of hitting very many units in a general area and the creeping effect allows for a relatively easy side stepping of the strike zone for the alert player with good reflexes. The Stuka rarely wipes entire squads unless these are garrisoned or support weapons that take equipment damage and is destroyed (most often if damaged before and not repaired). It does wipe squads that are squadAI(tm) "bunched up" in a small poinpoint if a rocket lands right, there is scatter within the zone so this is by no means guaranteed. The main issue with the Stuka is its ability to wipe hurt and retreating squads by predicting retreat paths. This should, in my opinion, not be possible. Otherwise the "pros and cons" nature of the weapon and its long cooldown is a fairly good mix.

The Katyusha: Relatively short cooldown, large and undefined area with a lot of scatter, but very high AoE and strike damage across that zone. Fires "barrages" of rockets one after the other.

Thoughts: This is pretty much the same as the Stuka in the "asset and hindrance" aspect. The large and undefined area makes precision bombing impossible, but also makes predicting the actual hits next to impossible, necessitating a complete withdrawal from a large area of the map. Also wipes squads that are already damaged or squadAI(tm) bunched. Due to random scatter of several barrages, the Katyusha has a better chance of hurting a squad in one volley and wiping it in the consecutive volleys. The Katyusha is more problematic for the OKW than for the Ostheer, in that the okw keep bases on field and use "hard points" to fight. The OKW trucks take a large amount of damage from the Katyusha, and cannot avoid the barrage. In general I think this different set of strengths and weaknesses balances out well in comparison to the Stuka. However, cooldown needs to be significantly longer (comparable to the stuka) and the damage against OKW trucks modified. A slight (and I do mean slight) decrease of the AoE damage to allow some side stepping would probably be a good idea.

Blanket statements like "if the stuka is fine so is the katyusha" is hardly constructive. Both units have issues and different uses. Avoiding hyperbole, playing with and against the unit and learning to mitigate it rather than simply calling "op" and dropping the whole "no you <insert faction of your choice fanboy here>" would lead to much better balance discussions.

I forgot to add to the summary of my post, even though a matchup of equal numbers of tanks is a coin toss and that could perhaps be considered fair the OKW can ill afford the loss of those tanks, while their opponents will quickly replace their losses. That I guess is the crux of the problem.

I agree you dont want to stick to only one tier with spending no fuel.. it will cost you too much.

You either need to do: T2 > T3
T3 > T4
T2 > T4

Getting T4 is obviously good for Obers, and the flak HQ itself.

But going T2 then T3 I think is nice because you can get a puma for not much more fuel than having gone T4 building.. a puma will have synegry with the HEAT rounds as you point out. It also gives you repairs for your P4s and rss conversion. It only requires that you rely on T1 inf more.. but do we really NEED Obers when we have P4 anti inf..?

I've played a lot of matches with the Elite Armored commander. If you go T2 T3 you wont have the PIVs until pretty late in the game. I've found that I need Obers to survive until then vs tooled up riflemen or guards/shocks with conscript support/maxims. Otherwise I tend to loose too much map control. The exception is of course if my opponent makes a really bad mistake or two and lets me grab an mg. But yeah, otherwise you're stuck with t1 inf, and they dont really cut it in my experience.

Warning, wall of text incoming.

TLDR - Needs some changes due to odd design, lowering cost of some abilities and changing the pIV callin to a single tank.

Good thread! These are my thoughts from a 1v1 perspective. I got this commander shortly after release as one of my first drops and have been trying to make it work ever since.

Unfortunately I feel that the commander is in a very awkward spot, even with the recent OKW buffs. The commander requires both a lot of munitions and a lot of fuel. Lets have a look at the different abilities.

Signal Relay (2cp): Getting a 20 sec window of insight into where enemy armor is and how much armor the other player has is actually pretty useful for gauging the opponents strategy (seeing armor at certain time points is telling) and for setting up attacks. However at 50 munitions it is too expensive, especially given the need to upgrade volks, use grenades, and save a hefty store of munitions for the p4 call-in.

Emergency Repairs (4cp): An ability that repairs a small amount of hp and vehicle criticals when there are no pioneers nearby. However its practical use is limited as the tank is rendered immobile and defenseless for 15 seconds. Backing away from a firefight and using this ability is very risky, perhaps better used when running onto a mine on some isolated part of the battlefield. Again the cost, 60 munitions, is too expensive within the doctrine design.

HEAT rounds (7cp): A very useful ability that applies to all armor, even pumas. The theory is that this ability gives +30% penetration and damage. If this is the case, then it can be used to make the Puma a viable mid game contender vs enemy medium armor and to make the panzerjaeger IV a fearsome AT weapon. The ability costs 45 munitions, possibly too expensive just like the other abilities, and last for 20 seconds. Smart enemies will back away from the Panzerjaeger and attempt to avoid the fight in this timeframe, resulting in wasted munitions. Use of the ability also lowers projectile velocity a lot and makes the scatter odd somehow. Not sure if this is intended.

Some calculations with the puma in mind
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Panzer Commander (8cp): The commander is a good upgrade, increasing sight range by a decent amount. Works well with the panther, considering its longer weapon range. It is annoying that it excludes the mg upgrade though and the commander is notably absent from the unit where it would truly shine, the Panzerjaeger IV. Fairly priced at 30 minutions and gives access to a good call in barrage at 120 munitions.

Veteran Panzer IV battle group (9cp): Unfortunately the commanders top ability is also where it falls flat. Though cheap on paper as a call in at 360mp 90 fuel per tank, the mandated double call-in means a steep price tag in reality. The PIV’s themselves are lackluster without upgrades, falling short of their ostheer counterparts in several ways. Veterancy is random and spans between no veterancy and lvl 2 veterancy, with a clear leaning towards none or one star.


A comparison of the main callin contenders to arrive slightly before or at the same time as the PIV:
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Some numbers on matchup between the PIV and the Easy8 and the t34/85: Conclusion, dicey.
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Summary: The OKW has a difficult time competing without either doctrinal infantry or Obersoldaten. Equally, surviving the early and mid -game without fairly heavy fuel investments is very hard. To have a chance of getting the battle group out around the 9cp mark and the mid game, it is practically a must to build only the t2 resource conversion station and using it to boost fuel income while keeping a strict 0 fuel expenditure policy. This means trying to stay alive until late midgame with nothing but volks, sturms and raketenwehrfers while lacking persistent healing. This also requires a lot of munitions to compete while converting to fuel and trying to save munitions to get the p4s up to par. This is a route I simply do not find viable. It will, in most cases, result in lost map control and an inability to reach the required resources in any case. More likely an investment in a puma and the t4 flack HQ for obers is needed, resulting in a late deployment of the battlegroup. In short, the enemy will have one or several easy8’s, t34/85’s, an IS2 or 3 or so shermans and enough left over for a jackson by the time the pIV’s hit the field.

The PIVJ is just not good enough without the upgrades. While cheap on paper per tank the dual callin and the steep total sum of the necessary upgrades and ability use create a need for both a lot of fuel and a lot of munitions that is hard to reconcile. Even with the upgrades the tanks compete on an equal footing to Easy8 and t34/85’s at best when HEAT rounds are active, any fight between an equal number is a coin toss. The higher cost of the opposition is deceptive as the total price of the PIV is really very high (recalculate munitions and fuel to MP on all entities and compare. Factor in OKW fuel deficit to get an idea of the timeframe). If these fragile tanks are destroyed due to bad luck or carelessness it is a long road to get more of them.

A more viable strategy might be to play the commander as if the battlegroup is simply an optional bonus to be used if opportunity presents itself. Use the usual t1/t2 to t3 build order and utilize pumas or jagdpanzers with heat rounds, possibly getting a fairly nasty panther by the endgame. This leaves some question as to why anyone should choose this commander over other options, such as breakthrough or scavenging.

Thoughts on Improvements: Lowering the cost of the commander abilities would probably be a good idea, Signal relay to 30-35, emergency repairs to 35-40, HEAT rounds to 30-35. This would ease the conflicting imperatives in the commander somewhat. The most urgent change would likely be to make the PIV a single tank callin, letting it arrive in a timeframe where it can have an impact.

An alternate change, and one that might be too good, is to allow the Panzerjaeger access to the commander upgrade.