Thread: Guard1 Dec 2014, 01:13 AM
i have no fucking clue why it was nerfed. it wasn't needed and it had a severe impact on their performance. the only unit it had a significant impact on was the 222 and that can see further than 45. it's not like the 222 has much use now anyway.
I think it was to stop M3 + Guard kiting 222, when everyone was M3 spamming with guards/snipers/flamers inside. |
Get shot once driving up, get shot twice before cannister shot goes off. That's a dead greyhound to a Pak sir.
Get shot once driving up, reverse, and wipe any harassing squad elsewhere? Unless you get a double pak and nuke the greyhound, which isn't exactly something you can afford to do for reasons stated
As Ostheer I'm of the opinion that you should concentrate your forces as much as possible and pretty much buy every unit.
I don't quite get this one, buy one of every unit?
So he has a lieutenant, a greyhound, an m20 and a captain and you have what to show for 190 fuel? I'll grant you that 80 of your fuel is gonna go into teching, so what about the other 80?
My bad, I mean Lieut/M20/Greyhound OR more rifles/Captain/Greyhound. Also, making the assumption that you will have equal map control to the USF player, as ostheer, is a bit of a long stretch.
They cater to reactionaries, rather than proactives. You can avoid getting cannister shot by an m8 by having AT ready to pound it for coming too close, or a mine covering the retreat, But that would require preemptive play...
I've mentioned before in the thread other reasons. either way, i'll make sure to pull out the greyhound if I meet you on automatch, i'd be glad to learn a thing or two about countering it if it's that easy.  |
Missed that your going to have to lose some men just to get close to it to Panzerfaust it as ost?
Its not going to be a clean kill to take it out, you realize that right?
What more do you want to deal with (light)armor? Or did the ROF nerf to the Pak make most ost think they don't have AT anymore?
You seem pretty defensive about this issue, for some reason.
Lose some men =/= Lose whole squad
Clean kill =/= No guarantee of kill
I don't think I'm getting through to you here... you cannot afford to lose squads as Wehr, or risk losing squads like that, or you cannot hold any of the map vs the advantage of the USF. Balling up 3 grenadiers in one corner of the map and trying to faust- and kill!- an M8 is not something you can afford to do.
Dealing with light armor- being able to retreat and preserve squads against a faction which already numerically and qualitatively outnumbers early game, which is a reasonable thing to expect from a 3CP 280MP/40F unit. Even the KV8 was deemed silly enough to nerf for its retreat-flame antics, and that's a lategame dedicated heavy anti-infantry tank. No need to even kill it- the M20 is harder to kill courtesy of smoke, and comes earlier too, after all- but steps should be able to be taken by the ostheer player to reduce the impact of M8 damage-wise.
It isn't so much about the Pak nerf, it's the compound pressure from rifles + tech squad + M20/light vehicle which requires manpower-expensive tech to deal with when you need squads to fight there and then. And with the greyhound, tech units don't even perform particularly well at preventing wipes. |
investing 700+ MP into double paks - which isn't even guaranteed to deal with the greyhound, or even prevent the squadwipes- is just as suicidal as not dealing with the greyhound at all at this point.
Well then it seems you better get some MP to replace your guys, ether you get the AT to deal with it or it deals with your men. Nothing in-between.
You might have missed this
|
Being caught out deserves some punishment, dontcha think? Retreat is not a get out of jail free card.
You should always have a safety net, or enough map awareness to avoid ttouble.
At the stage of the game it arrives, it not even a matter of being 'caught out'. Drive round the flanks, annihilate squads, and drive away. Don't have the munitions? Keep doing it, because the ostheer player cannot afford to play chicken when every squad at that point of the game is worth so much.
Because it only takes a second for the shotgun to go off, you can have a pak positioned right in the retreat path and it makes not an iota of difference, because the greyhound doesn't need to chase or expose itself for any meaningful amount of time. Shoot and scoot, nothing in the ostheer arsenal is going to be able to deal with it at that stage of the game unless you overinvest in paks/222s. Having all the map awareness the game is not going to do anything, unless you suggest multicapping with three squads everywhere you go.
No, how about you support your inf/inf blobs with some AT? or some... you know, light armor.
As above. Play a couple 1v1s as ostheer and you'll see that having 'light armor', paks, shrecks, and 222s is not something you can afford to invest heavily in early on.
From what it sounds like, people expect the wehr player to deal with the M8 in a vacuum... which is fine, until you realize that you're facing 3 rifles + lieut + m20 / 4 rifles Captain camping buildings, and you're already at a big manpower loss because of the way teching works. investing 700+ MP into double paks - which isn't even guaranteed to deal with the greyhound, or even prevent the squadwipes- is just as suicidal as not dealing with the greyhound at all at this point. |
I've seen it happen many times in our team games.
In teamgames it makes sense that the density of units is high enough to prevent the greyhound from working the flanks freely on some maps. I have neither used nor faced a greyhound in teamgames where it had an serious effect, so I'll take your word for it.
In 1v1s though, balling up your troops is a good way to lose your map control really fast. You really can't afford move your troops in twos- and threes- just to capture one point, especially when your map control as ostheer is already so terrible to begin with on most maps.
To fix it, I think it should be super effective, however, it also should be super expensive.
I don't think the whole idea of one shot one squad is a good idea in the first place- it takes no effort to use, and is frustrating in the extreme to face. People have suggested the canister being able to stun, or being more like a grenade with increased delay, or affected by cover, to mitigate the effects of the shotgun shell, all of which would add an element of play and counterplay not reflected in the current manifestation of the canister shell, nor would be reflected in a version where it is simply more expensive and more effective.
|
Points made
1. You need to cap.
2. Point taken, seems like 222 vs greyhound is pretty RNG. Regardless, the greyhound is not going to die to the 222 unless you screw up and get hit by a faust.
3. in the long run tech costs even out, but in the early game you cannot afford to spend MP that isn't going straight into fighting... it's hard to explain. the easiest way to understand the ostheer vs USF dynamic currently is to hop into 1v1 and see what exactly I mean by the manpower situation.
|
Counter with 222.
1. In the same manner that T70 cannot stop the Luchs from killing squads on retreat, the 222 can't kill the M8 in any reasonable timeframe. The M8 doesn't even need to chase squads to kill on retreat, it's just wipe and run. it doesn't need to expose itself to antitank for any longer than the second it takes for the canister to go off, then it disappears into the fog and appears at the other end of the map to kill the capping squad there. Nothing can be done with the 222 to prevent that apart from guessing where the greyhound will appear and waiting, in which case the greyhound leaves to no loss of the USF player.
2. Skirted Greyhound beats 222 at most ranges:
3. 222 costs 510MP 55MUNI 15F to get out. the M8 costs 280MP 40F. More importantly, you cannot afford to spend the manpower and munitions at that stage of the game whereas the USF can.
4. It's a oneshot ability that takes no anticipation, forward thinking, or (i'd say) skill whatsoever, as moronic as the old precision nuke on mortars, demo charges, squadwipe mines, or stuka. Even if it were countered by the 222 (which in practice it is not), it's conceptually silly from the outset. |
|
Not sure what happened to the last thread about this ability, so here goes.
There's really nothing much to say here- it's just ridiculous. You roll up to a squad and oneshot. If he retreats, you overtake and oneshot.
There's absolutely nothing you can do at 3CP as ostheer on so many maps- at that point you already need every drop of manpower and munition for healing, flamers, and LMGs because of the USF infantry advantage, so multiple tellers are not an option. Neither are they reliable, REs are cheap and there's no reason not to get sweepers on them early. The pak simply isn't maneuverable enough to deal with it. To add insult to injury the greyhound can oneshot paks and full shreck squads too, which is a complete game ender. 40 fuel be damned, it's worth a hell of a lot more just for the constant squadwipes.
Even if you don't have the munitions to do it, just driving up to a squad is enough to force a retreat, which is very valuable in itself when the ostheer already struggles so hard with the early game. |
More words
I'm afraid you don't understand my point- I'm not asking for your arguments or your rehearsed theorycrafting. I'm asking you to play OKW and use the Jagdtiger . As much as I don't want to be a member of the Card Police, it's apparent that you haven't so much as played OKW in a large team game, let alone used the unit. Go on do that, not because I want to be snobbish and go "oh you haven't played as much as me, your view is irrelevant" but because it's really the only way to reach an accurate perspective, much more so than shouting on a forum thread could ever do.
|
GGTheMachine
Quicksilver
Quicksilver
rahcedukab
Quicksilver
Relic Entertainment
