Uhhh, what?
Flanked raketen can reatreat. Flanked ZiS or 57mm cannot.
What soviet's have to hold the line agasint tanks? PTRS? Only ZiS gun. Not to mention that Raketen is T0 unit which can cloak.
So what's SU or USF mid-game AT option? PTRS? Zooks? As AT they only rely on AT guns, but OKW cannot rely on AT gun which can retreat?
I think the main point is that with its shorter range, the Raketen is easier to flank and to make it retreat.
With the Zis' longer range it is less likely to be flanked.
Zookas are a good option for mid-game vs medium vehicles. Have you tried them? When you have 6 together, they'll make short work of a PIV or Ostwind.
OKW can no longer rely on the Raketen. I used to build 5 and one-shot medium tanks. Now the Calliope with recon has ended it :'( The Croc also wrecks the Raketen.
To OP - No I don't think it's good to remove the shrek. OKW has no LMG for its core infantry. It can't even get them off a 2v2 partner unlike Allies. |
What's ResidentSleeper about his casts?
Those first two games vs Paul were awesome wp)
I don't get the resident sleeper comment either.
The triple casts with the GG guys were great ^^ Probably the best replays and casts I've seen this year! |
by your logic we should nerf the King Tiger even more cause its nondoctrinal compared to the Pershing/IS-2
just because its doctrinal DOESNT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN it should be more powerful then its non doctrinal counterpart
You're right.
Good point about terrain pierce too, it's important.
I'm not talking about nerfing overall power though. It can be any mechanism that makes turtling up difficult. I like dynamic play, that's why strong emplacements bother me.
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I casted a game recently a very interesting 3v3 game that was pretty entertaining and for the first 25 minutes of the game I was suggesting that one of the players built a 17 pounder on the left flank of the German line - The Germans had over extended in centre and it was prime real estate to punish them with a heavy AT gun. I was especially interested with how one of the players of the OKW was spamming out Pak 43's like there was no tomorrow - though in this case I disagreed with the placement.
So how does this relate to balance you ask? Well I looked to see how much the OKW Pak 43 costs 500 manpower all right that's ok, 10 Population.... wait what?
For those of you who don't know the 17 pounder cost 400 manpower and 75 fuel - reasonable if potentially over costed since it has brace, the ability to self spot and better Rate of Fire if garrisoned. however what got me very upset is it's population cost. A whopping 20 manpower. That is ludicrous.
Niether the Pak 43 nor the 17 Pounder justify 20 pop cap. I honestly think it's totally bonkers to allow a static gun that can be flanked and shelled without repositioning to be that much of a drain on population.
They both should be sitting around the 14-16 pop cap range the same as a Firefly/Panther - they should be alternatives to a highly mobile play style. Their cost as it stands is too much of a pop cap investment.
Do I think the Pak 43 is OP? No
Good point but remember the pak43 is doctrinal. That instantly limits it. non-doctrinal super-gun with low pop is a horribld proespect.
Also, with BRACE making emplacements hard to kill, I can understand the 20-pop to restrict their use. Sim city is no fun, especially not when they can put up SHIELD OF INVULNERABILITY whenever threatened.
I'd vote for the pak43 going up a couple of pop and the 17pdr going down 2 maximum.
Either that or nerf brace to dissaude sim city and reduce popcap to 12
Do I think the 17 Pounder is UP? No
Do I think that the 17 pounder needs a decrease to 14-16 pop Yes
Do I think the Pak 43 needs a slight adjustment to 12-14 pop Yes
What do you guys think. I have to say a pop discrepancy of 10 for similar units is just plain wrong. It'd be like if a IS-2 was 12 pop while a Tiger was 24. Am I wrong here? I'd like to get some opinions. |
Let me answer you in some points.
1. You made two identical threads.
2. It was the su-152 to be called animal hunter, not IS-2
3. Is-2 is 3rd best tanks in the game after KT and JT that cost considerably more. It also has great AI and impenetrable armour.
4. Ballance is more important that history. In history the tank was also very inaccurate and due to 2 part ammo it took long to reload and best known types of ammunition couldnt be used limiting possible penetration. We had IS-2 as historical as it gets designed with those features in mind but it was so much rng everybody decided it wasnt good. So now it has limited damage but it got better acc and reload while keeping it superior armour, both front and rear.
"whatever killer" is more like "Pizdets vsemu" so rather su-100, but yeah, animal killer "zveroboy" was su-152.
Awesome post. To OP - this is all correct facts and well-based opinions.
I wish they'd put pizdec-vsemu into the game just so I can hear the soldiers call it pizdec-vsemu)
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It's easy to make a theory work in your fantasy than in reality.
It kinda sucks if there are only 3 paths to the enemy's artillery unit and one of them goes through the frontline. It's incredible hard to stay unnoticed and the enemy will obviously take precautions (as mentioned mines, keeping the arty units close other units, instant retreat after firing, firing from maximum distance or behind shotblockers).
Trying to ambush the enemy behind his lines is a suicide mission. Losing a tank+light vehicle+pios is not worth it.
I agree with you. Please understand that.
The nature of the maps is such that attacking behind the lines is overly difficult. This makes indirect fire vehicles more effective than perhaps they should be.
This goes for Stukas, Pwerfers, Katyushas. Only these three units are very weak. Meaning if you do get behind the lines, one or two shots is enough.
With the Calliope however, you have to stay around and chase it. This makes it much less likely you can kill a calliope and more likely you'll lose your unit even if you do.
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There's something called a "mine". Try to succeed with your ambush against a few of them...
Exactly.
So imagine that you're ambushing a calliope, you get through to it by avoiding the mines and it just trundles slowly away bouncing your shells  At least vs Pwerfer/stuka you have a very good chance of taking them out if you ambush. With a calliope you have very low chance if it retreats as soon as they see you.
I agree that a lot of maps make it hard to ambush these things. Actually all indirect fire in CoH2 is annoying because the maps do not allow for them to be taken out easily.
Also - minesweepers in transport vehicles detect mines. You can send one in just behind your tanks and no mine damage. |
Once again, Take Calliope, We USF will be happy to trade it for the Panzerwerfer.
Tip : A good player will use a Pwerfer and then send him back to base we're he is unrreachable, so your Tank armor and tank health argument is worthless
I would gladly take the Calliope over Pwerfer! Please get a job at Lelic and make it happen
You're right that good Pwerfer play means sending back to base. But don't forget that it has to come forward when firing and is vulnerable then. A good allied player will be ready for this and have a flank planned. So your "Panzerwerfer is sometimes in base" argument is " worthless" because it sometimes isn't and can die to one shot.
Plus if it's far back you may miss a great opportunity 'cos you have to wait 5-10 seconds for it to get in place. |
I am not saying they are UP or OP. The meta is absolutely the same, as it allways was: In 90% of games, you do good with Allies in early game, you have the first cahnce. Allies are early game advantage factions, Axis are late game advantage factions. The only exception is UKF, which was a FAILED faction because it was build in a way that broke the meta and screwed the balance. Therefore, Relic desperatley attempted to adjust them, but since the concept is a FAIL from beginning, this faction will never find its place and will never be balanced for games larger than 1v1s.
For instance, playing with Allies in 2v2 random, if I am mixed with a brit player I know in a proportion of 80% that it will be a lost game.
Comming back to OKW, I was just saying that the changes and the revamp were wrong.
First, they shouldn't have removed the OKW flavor. You know, no stock P4s, no 100% income, no conversion removal, etc. If P4 is an acceptable adition to some extent, they should not screw the initial concept: crack units, poor resources.
They could build on that ideea and I am sure they would have found the way between and they would balance the faction.
Take for instance the OKW status before the big revamp. If some little changes were done, nobody (except allied hardocre fanboys - but hey, they are allways gonna cry and life will be unfair for them for ever), would say now that OKW is OP.
I just give some examples:
- Kubel - actual status, replacing MG34. Mg34 - stock unit and a little price increase like 240 or something. No change at all for volks.
- AA buildable emplacements better health or/and receive an extra model.
- ISG actual status.
- Cheaper mines. Cheaper bobby traps.
- AA HT - no engine damage from small arms fire
- Scavange revamp. Scavanging a vehicle, gives fuel - but a little more. 8 or 10. Scavanging a weapon gives amo. Like 15 or 20.
- sturmpios actual status
And a one or two more, I even made a list somewhere but I ain't got time now to look for it. These changes were soft and were compensating the OKW weaknesses nicely, without transforming it into a hated faction - again. Dunno why instead a small risk-free step, Relic made a big and verry risky step with this faction.
And frankly, I truly believe that Ostheer had, and still has, more problems than OKW had.
Great answer, thanks JohnnyB. Lot to think about now. |
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Calliope is good in that it deters blobbing. Anti-blob is good. On the downside it is a unit-deleting tool. If you're a second late retreating, your unit is gone and with it being so quiet it's easy to miss. Attrition of vetted squads is a powerful ability that comes too easily to the Calli.
But the game needs blob counters so it has to stay. Perhaps lower damage? Or wider spread? So it still hurts when it hits a blob but won't auto-wipe a couple of units.
Also, not sure that a unit with high damage + wide AOE + long range + mobility+ tank health + tank armour is a good idea. The argument "but it is expensive" is wrong because if there was a nuclear bomb that cost 600 fuel and 2000 MP that auto-wins the game, it would still spoil balance despite being expensive.
Katyusha, Pwerfer, StukaZF all die in 1 or 2 shots. Soviet howitzers have durability but no mobility. Calli has everything and can't be flanked and killed quickly like other mobile arty. I think all mobile arty should have low health and armour to offset their damage output. |
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