Profile of Protos Angelus

Tested this option 3 times.





Rifles won like that 2 times, once won with only 2 models remaining and pixel health.


Now I'm quite well aware that this is against all recommendations, charging pios in cover. But in this situation, with green cover being extremely unreliable (well, a lot of 3v3 maps have such unreliable cover for 5 model squads), in a sense that it's impossible to position squad in green cover to trade with pios wihtout being suppressed by an MG42 behind pios, how is this well balanced. This is probably now a gameplay category thread seeing as how can USF win on such maps with echelon + 2 rifles in first couple of minutes against pio + gren + MG42, where one MG42 can lock down 2 whole sectors, meaning that if you have an inferior spawn, you are forced to shift or rely on your ally to win their lane to flank onto yours. Of course, pios DPS drops to 0 the further the enemy is, but rifles are also quite weaker than grens and volks, the further away they are, meaning the MG42 can just hammer away and bleed hp until one squads comes up and forces them away.


On this map, and a couple of other 3v3s, green cover is non existent in it's full extent (one model outside of cover or in yellow cover or not covered at all from most angles)... meaning that one MG42 behind those pios makes all assaults impossible. Flanking is non existent and once grens show up, all you can do is just abandon this side for the time being. Of course, that's not a balance problem, but an idiotic map design. Anyway, I digress.

I have confirmed as well that if you spend 20 munitions, which in that stage, the first minute... is A LOT... you will win against PIOS hard. They suppressed 4/5 times and won without a single model dropping. That one time was probably a RNG favour.
However, my point with these pictures is to show that, unlike other game modes, starting squads and starting firepower is extremely important in 3v3. On most such maps, USF strengths are nullified by the design.

Some maps allow you to put the whole squad behind green cover and just trade, while the 2nd squad is flanking or just capping other points, but for some reason, we never got a 3v3 map rework/pool and got stuck with maps that are just horribly designed.


Of course, aerafield is right, veterancy bonuses and 5 man with good target size at vet3 is all well and good... but on paper mostly. I've had plenty of REs that got to vet3 with double zooks, but it's still mostly a bleed-fest against explosives (still, 5 man proved to be a saving grace many times, where the squad survived with 1 model after a P4 or tiger hit).



To sum up, I do not think that Rear echelons are UP or OP, nor do I think that pioneers are UP or OP. I think that rear echelon could use a small rework, at the cost of the suppressive fire (which could be added to rangers perhaps to justify such a high 350/10 price with 0 utility). Whether it's a slight price/reinforce buff or maybe giving pioneers extra offensive power at veterancy, and reducing their SMG offensive power at vet0, so that they can't just charge and win (spios can do that against anyone but they are 300 MP).

I also do not think that any faction is OP or UP (Brits are a shi*stain of a faction, I do not consider them to be a valid faction, they do not exist). What I do think that people should be aware of such small details concerning map design so that future problems are mitigated (COH3). Where having a larger squad can be a weakness in certain maps because they simply don't fit (conscripts have massive sandbags).

Balance wise, I highly doubt there will be further patches, but concerning the map design, if any of the designers from COH2 will participate in designing community COH3 maps, they should be aware of the squad sizes/cover lengths. As grenediers are basically conscripts in COH3, they might have a problem of fitting behind cover, so one should pay attention to that so that grens don't end up useless on some maps.

In my humble opinion about USF in x1 mode. for me it's almost mandatory, before going to major, you get the captain and lieutenant build. If you don't hold your own against the P4's with 2 AT and their superiority in light vehicles and infantry early to mid-game, the endgame is unlikely to be turned in your favor with just a poor sherman or an unprotected M36. in fact, if the USF doesn't maintain pressure in the beginning for the midgame, it can settle because turning a USF game in the late game against a good axis player will be unlikely and it won't be worth the mental health that you will wear out with this colossal endeavor.

Is it even possible to not go both lieutenant and captain in 1v1s?
I mean, you could have the AAHT as a suppression platform, but that is micro intensive and cannot be played aggressively (2 shot dead).
You need the captain for AT gun and you need the lieutenant for the MG, and since you need the MG "sooner" than you need an AT gun, going full tech for both is not all too wise... for what? Laughable pak howi and AAHT?

USF is the same in every mode, which makes it quite fun to play: Maintain aggression or fall to a steady push from axis.

I don't play a ton of 3v3, but for 4v4 I personally just don't see lone REs vs lone Pios very often there. Its much more my full force vs your full force style engagements. YMMV.

Personally I also don't bother rushing the fuel with the REs. I find it nearly impossible to beat an MG42 that early on, so just grabbing my more basic caps makes more sense to me. I'll come back and pressure it when I have a larger force of Rifles, Smoke, (Mortar or Grenade) and the Ambo for forward reinforce. (usually minute 3 or so) My early REs mostly focus on securing VPs and putting down tank traps and wire, then get pressed into MG bait so I can figure out exactly where it is.

Well, 3v3 is another story completely because you don't have the luxury of "just" securing regular points. The level of 3v3 games is all over the place. Just last game got this brilliancy of MM.

and since 80% of games is basically just MM either screwing you (like in this game), or screwing the opponent (like a couple of games ago, where I played with top 100 against top 5000, won in 10 minutes).
So if you don't win your own fuel, you can never count on your teammate winning theirs. Fuel in 3v3 is a priority.

My point is that Rear echelons/CEs in Green cover should not lose to pioneers charging across neutral cover. Same as how Pioneers should not lose to rear echelons or CEs or royal engies charging against green cover. Well, they don't lose, but as well they shouldn't. I've tested it once, just after my last game. Combat engineers do not lose to pioneers in that same engagement. Tested it only once as I'm done for today. Basically, CEs do a lot more damage to pioneers on the longer range, and once they are close, they are down to 3 models and low hp, so CEs won that scenario.

Its just a lot of little things.

First, REs continue to get combat bonuses as they vet while every other Engineer other than Sturms doesn't. While they aren't huge buffs, they are noticeable, and mean the squad scales a lot better vs mainlines than the other Engineers.

Second, USF doesn't get mines and has self repair. This frees REs up a lot more than the Engineers of the other factions, and usually means you get an extra squad to cap with and add fire support.

Third is just the easy access to double heavy weapons. (without locking the sweeper no less) They can bring way more firepower to the field than anything other than Royal Engineers. No one else has such a convenient place to put double handheld AT Guns without wrecking the AI of a good mainline squad.

Fourth is just the Smoke Grenade. People get too caught up in how bad Volley Fire is and ignore this, but being able to smoke an MG early is a huge advantage that no other Engineer can do.

I won't pretend they are my favorite Engineer, but they aren't bad. They were nerfed at one point because RE spam was too good, and suffer for it a bit nowadays. But, While I'll always hold that the USF starting unit should have been a scout or proto-pathfinder, I can live with REs in their current form as well.

Agreed for the most part except the smoke. Early smoke means early nade tech means delaying the AAHT (at least what I play in 90% of games).
Double heavy weapons. Ok argument. My counterargument is that it's only useful against light vehicles --> At that stage you want AT gun and BARs rather than double zook on echelons, otherwise Volks, spios, grens, etc... eat you alive.

Later on, as the game progresses, it's sort of an ANTI-DIVE mechanic, given how there are no proper mines in stock USF. You get a couple of zooks on echelons, and P4 dives won't be as free as you'd think. Sure zooks won't pen frontally, but dives usually include exposing the rear.

But my main issue is not late nor anything like that, it's the fact that at the start of the game, they can be displaced by another engineer unit that charges across neutral terrain, without actually taking much bleed. Those starting engagements dictate A LOT in teamgames. In the case of Across the Rheine, it means that charging the now entrenched 2 model pio with rifles spells doom, because there will be an MG behind it, and pios have 42 vision, so it's easy to shut down a sector. Not to mention....

Do the same test with rifles charging onto pioneers in green cover, and see how rifles melt (and you'll want to charge into cover otherwise the MG will pin you due to idiotic map design).

So you lose control of the sector and possibly the whole fuel/VP point, all because at the beginning, one rear echelon behind green cover, loses HARD against a pio charging it.


Of course, in the end, such things are mainly 3v3 and 4v4 problem where pure firepower is the main concern, not the ability to cap other points (which your ally will deal with).


Scenario I've witnessed many-a-time:

You rush and entrench your echelon into a good cover position on fuel. Rifles are running to help. Pio charges your entrenched position, wins, displaces rear echelon. 2 model pio is capping and behind them is an MG42 locking down a sector, pio spots you first. You can risk a charge, time it between MG42 bursts, you will lose one model of rifles charging pios, but pios will need to retreat, MG42 will keep hammering away at you and by the time your 2nd rifle squad arrives, their grenediers arrive and all they have to do is keep hammering away at a distance since rifles are sh** at long range while MG42 and grens are not == Lost sector (that's what I've seen each and every top 100 OST player do, on 3v3 maps as most of them are lane-y. Not to mention that on most 3v3 maps, space to flank is non existent and pios 42 starting sight secures them the early oppression if they are not sloth-like in rotating the MG.

I would improve rear echelon starting firepower and reduce veterancy bonuses, so that they will lose to spios when they charge them, but won't lose to pios charging them, which are much cheaper than spios.

[Don't know if this is Balance or Gameplay section]

So I've one question having played plenty of games, where I learned to fear pioneers. However, given how cheap they are, have access to flamers, repair fast and overall are much more competent units compared to Rear Echelon, I've been left wondering:

Why are rear echelon so weak in combat, yet cost 200 MP?


I have done the following test 4 times, 3 yesterday (after my rifles charged from behind the sight blocker to green cover pios on Redball... it was a 3 second run to be in the same cover the pios were.... and rifles lost that, bottom VP redball), and once today for the screenshots.

Basically I've put rear echelon behind green cover and charged with pios on them. I dragged the selection to green cover and let it play out.

Pioneers won all 4 times with 2 models remaining, pretty much identical health in all 4 fights, as seen in the screenshots:






Rear echelon started firing the moment they got in firing range, from green cover, pios ran over neutral cover, got to the green cover the rear echelon were in (completely static), and still won HARD.

So my question is... why are rear echelon so amazingly bad at combat?
They have poor repair speed (thanks to repair crews)
They have no proper sandbags. The tank traps are harder to destroy, but also harder to position properly against MGs, as 5 man rifles will DERP out hard running around tank traps to be in green cover. Not to mention that unless there are 3 tank traps, most of the times, one model will be "outside" of the green cover.
They lose to each and every combat unit there it, from early to late.

The only saving grace is the ability to carry zooks (100 munis), which is not that big of a deal, given how easy they go down, meaning that at most times, you'll be able to fire off one volley of rockets (that tend to miss or not penetrate), before retreating (and losing sweeper for some time). Well, that and the fact that they don't have to build structures... but then again, given how they lose every fight, they are bound to retreat to base where they "could" build sth.

So why are rear echelon so damn sh***y and relatively expensive. Do they have some magical property I'm forgetting about or is the ability to carry zooks a justification enough for their poor combat performance?